General Hacking Discussion

[Kraiz]

If you have not checked the Wiki as of late, there are quite a lot of changes and additions to ways to hack the AI. 

Is it possible that a HUD Element can be displayed to show the AI's current "Defense Multiplier" for these hack attempts?  It may help provide a more concrete way for players to judge if/when/what method of hacking they should perform.  Also, as a minor side-suggestion, a "Firewall" structure would be cool o give the AI that protects it's planet and the adjacent planets from beincg hacked (Aside from Superterminal hacks).  Perhaps Fortresses of the AI could even grant this bonus as a more strategic use to the AI.

This is meant to be just a general discussion of the upcoming features, though.  Post your comments or suggestions on these; the above two are my only thoughts on the matter, the rest I'll have to wait and see how it pans out in-game to judge.

[keith.lamothe]

One of the things I'm specifically trying to avoid is a "second AIP" resource, so it's not going on the hud; if it got to the point of needing to be on the hud it would probably have to be taken out of the game, actually. 

At some point it might add a descriptor to the "AI is spawning responses to your blah-blah-blah on (planet)" alerts to say something like "dimly aware" to "full alert" or whatever in case you've literally forgotten how much hacking you've done, but I doubt it would do more than that.

Much like how you're never told explicitly in-game how many points are going towards the various exo-sources (if you have any on) or where your thresholds are for those, etc.

I give out a lot more info than that in the forums and wiki because I know some of y'all really like having the numbers and being able to plot and scheme with them, but putting the info in the game is a very different ball of wax

[Diazo]

My only concern is going to be how fast things spool up. You did mention you are going to be keeping a close eye on it but my preference would be for the different types of hacking to spool up slower then the same number of hacking attempts at the same thing.

IE: 3x Knowledge Raiding would have a "Hacking Threat" of 3 while 1x Super Terminal, 1x Knowledge Raiding, 1x Knowledge Hacking would give "Hacking Threat" of 2.5.

I suppose suggestions should wait until I've had a chance to try it but whatever 

D.

[keith.lamothe]

The different hacks are tracked separately and feed in separately, and the ARS-hack does actually accelerate more than linearly (starting pretty low) ; a similar approach could be used for the others so as to reward a "diversified" approach.  On the other hand, if someone wants to forego k-raiding in order to maximize their use of the ST (or potentially vice versa), that's also something I want to be valid.

[Kraiz]

One of the things I'm specifically trying to avoid is a "second AIP" resource, so it's not going on the hud; if it got to the point of needing to be on the hud it would probably have to be taken out of the game, actually. 

At some point it might add a descriptor to the "AI is spawning responses to your blah-blah-blah on (planet)" alerts to say something like "dimly aware" to "full alert" or whatever in case you've literally forgotten how much hacking you've done, but I doubt it would do more than that.

Much like how you're never told explicitly in-game how many points are going towards the various exo-sources (if you have any on) or where your thresholds are for those, etc.

I give out a lot more info than that in the forums and wiki because I know some of y'all really like having the numbers and being able to plot and scheme with them, but putting the info in the game is a very different ball of wax

Ah, that's a good point.  My concern was very similar to D's, which is why I made the suggestion.  The other part of why I suggested it was for infrequently played Multiplayer games.  I sometimes forget locations and such, but then again, I could always use the planetery notes to keep track of things such as that.

Still getting a feel for the general design philosophy behidn the game; Give it time and I may be able to suggest something useful here and there in the future

[keith.lamothe]

The feedback is appreciated, and indeed none of this would be happening without player feedback over the past few years about k-raiding, the ST, ARS-facepalms, and how cool it would be to have "hacking" be a part of the game somehow

Hopefully we'll be able to get this into player hands next monday, so they can get hacked to bits

[Kittens]

I have to say that the ARS hacking seems unnecessarily fiddly and long, and has a pretty high opportunity cost for what is hardly a tangible benefit. I do like the option to choose your new bonus ship, however.

EDIT: How about this (if it's feasible): instead of always offering 3 bonus ship options to choose from after 10 minutes, add one option for every 2 minutes spent hacking (up to a maximum of whatever). So hacking for 2 minutes gives you 2 options to choose from, hacking for 4 minutes gives you 3 options, etc. Or make it 3 minutes per option instead of 2 if that seems more balanced...

[TechSY730]

I have to say that the ARS hacking seems unnecessarily fiddly and long, and has a pretty high opportunity cost for what is hardly a tangible benefit. I do like the option to choose your new bonus ship, however.

EDIT: How about this (if it's feasible): instead of always offering 3 bonus ship options to choose from after 10 minutes, add one option for every 2 minutes spent hacking (up to a maximum of whatever). So hacking for 2 minutes gives you 2 options to choose from, hacking for 4 minutes gives you 3 options, etc. Or make it 3 minutes per option instead of 2 if that seems more balanced...

I don't know about that. 10 minutes is rather fast by existing hacking standards, where 30 minutes to get any real benefit is normal.

Though you do bring up a good point. The other hacking stuff is variable in effect. The longer you are willing to put up with it, the more you get out of it.
With ARS hacking, in its current form, its all or nothing.

[Kittens]

I guess the reason I find it fiddly and long, is that you're going to be wiping out that world anyway once you're done, so it kind of feels like you're twiddling your thumbs for 10 minutes before doing so.

The other hacks don't have that. With knowledge raiding, you have no intention of taking over that world, and with the superterminal, you've already taken over that world. You're not waiting for traffic lights to turn green, so to speak.

Anyway, it's probably not very important, but I would like to see the variable aspect. 

[keith.lamothe]

I guess the reason I find it fiddly and long, is that you're going to be wiping out that world anyway once you're done, so it kind of feels like you're twiddling your thumbs for 10 minutes before doing so.

If the wild-rolls do their job, you probably will not have time for twiddling of thumbs

[TechSY730]

Will the ARS hacking be cumulative? Like if your ship-design hacker dies after 5 minutes, and then you replace it later on that same planet, do you only have to wait 5 minutes, or the full 10 minutes again?

And does the "aggravation against hacking" of the AI go up only with successful ship-design hacking attempts?

And what about the case where multiple players have a ship-design hacker on the same planet.
As you noted, you cannot speed up the process by having multiple of them on the same planet. So, which hacker does that actual hacking, and which player chooses the unlock? The one whose hacker finished first?

[keith.lamothe]

Will the ARS hacking be cumulative? Like if your ship-design hacker dies after 5 minutes, and then you replace it later on that same planet, do you only have to wait 5 minutes, or the full 10 minutes again?

Counter starts over; the hacker must remain alive and stationary on the planet for 10 minutes.  It's cloaked and mobile so once you deal with any wormhole-local tachyon sources you can just pack it off on a corner somewhere.

And does the "aggravation against hacking" of the AI go up only with successful ship-design hacking attempts?

That's correct; a failed attempt there won't drive anything up because you didn't actually get any benefit.

And what about the case where multiple players have a ship-design hacker on the same planet.
As you noted, you cannot speed up the process by having multiple of them on the same planet. So, which hacker does that actual hacking, and which player chooses the unlock? The one whose hacker finished first?

The unlock cannot be chosen until the planet is captured, and anyone controlling (by ownership or allow-team-control) an ARS or ship-design-hacker can choose the unlock.

[TechSY730]

Will the ARS hacking be cumulative? Like if your ship-design hacker dies after 5 minutes, and then you replace it later on that same planet, do you only have to wait 5 minutes, or the full 10 minutes again?

Counter starts over; the hacker must remain alive and stationary on the planet for 10 minutes.  It's cloaked and mobile so once you deal with any wormhole-local tachyon sources you can just pack it off on a corner somewhere.

And does the "aggravation against hacking" of the AI go up only with successful ship-design hacking attempts?

That's correct; a failed attempt there won't drive anything up because you didn't actually get any benefit.

These two together makes the "resetting the timer on death" behavior fine in my book.

And what about the case where multiple players have a ship-design hacker on the same planet.
As you noted, you cannot speed up the process by having multiple of them on the same planet. So, which hacker does that actual hacking, and which player chooses the unlock? The one whose hacker finished first?

The unlock cannot be chosen until the planet is captured, and anyone controlling (by ownership or allow-team-control) an ARS or ship-design-hacker can choose the unlock.

Ah, so you don't choose the new ship until the planet is captured.
This may seem silly to even bring up, but I'm assuming that the ARS knows better than to use the normal "unlock ship on capture" logic when it has been hacked successfully, and will return to "normal science lab options" once the new ship type has been selected.

[keith.lamothe]

This may seem silly to even bring up, but I'm assuming that the ARS knows better than to use the normal "unlock ship on capture" logic when it has been hacked successfully, and will return to "normal science lab options" once the new ship type has been selected.

Yes, part of it is supressing the normal unlock if the planet has the hacked flag   And the the unlock-selection will be a new tab on the science lab menu for it while it's on the planet.

[Spikey00]

Is there any interest for fitting the ARS into the new hacking mechanics?  Not the bonus-ship hacking, but giving extra free K on raids without increasing the AI raid response.  http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=6192

They have always been a throwaway vessel because the players should already have several MK1/2 sciences running around when they get to that point of capturing an ARS planet, and of course they were very weak.

I'd really like to see something more unique be done with the ARS, possibly with knowledge raiding mechanics from 5.028.
i.e. they can each k-raid up to 3k without increasing the AI zombie-ship-spawn response (but this should be indicated in the UI), so that's a maximum of 15k extra from a maximum five labs in one game.

I suggest that the total amount of knowledge gatherable be dependant on the amount of ARSes humans control currently, so if they lost two but have three they could only gather 9k of the 15k knowledge, emphasizing keeping these labs safe throughout the game. They stop collecting raid knowledge if the player loses them in action and the cap is now exceeded.

In multiplayer, the lab should collect for everyone.