Author Topic: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"  (Read 20631 times)

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2013, 11:56:05 pm »
Nah, the balance is pretty good right now; none of the ships I can really point to as "unreasonable to fight" or "so useless they aren't even worth being meat-shields". Or as you put it, no balance problems that could be considered a serious problem.

However, there are a few a bit too above or below a "balanced point". Some more noticeable than the others, but nothing that screams "game-breaking" or "not worth the kilobytes of ram to store". Just pointing out that I'd find it, for lack of a better word, disappointing if this "range" away from "balanced" was expanded quite a bit larger if too many units get added, especially now that this "range" has been shrinking over these last few versions.

So in other words, I'm really not adding anything new to the discussion at this point, as I am just restating what I and others have said. ;)

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2013, 12:00:09 am »
Some I can think of off the top of my head (mantis links later if desired):
AI units getting "stuck" after an attack (this has been going on for a long, LONG time)
AI units not always moving into range to attack (this one is similar to the above, but is more recent)
AI not using carrier guardians and neinzul regen chambers effectively
AI should not retreat neinzul units unless there is a nearby carrier guardian or neinzul regen chamber nearby
AI sometimes entering wormholes when they shouldn't
AI sometimes not repairing units (seems to happen with expensive units more often; is the AI erronously getting a "large project cutoff" thing? I have a very recent save I can post demonstrating this with an AI reclaimed mercenary ship)
AI needs some way to deal with cloaked military if their static tachyon detectors (tachyon guardians) failed (either they slipped past, or were destroyed)

There are many others, but those are the ones I notice most often.


Other things like the expansion of the scitzo wave logic and the exo-like wave compositions would be cool, but nowhere near as important IMO.


Alright, most of the ones I listed above can be found at http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,12774.msg140729.html#msg140729
Just go to the AI bugs section.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2013, 01:40:14 am »
[tired, not very creative]

Make a ship that uses some of that siege plasma damage spray logic. Instead of it doing 6.25%, it does 300% damage.

Have fun.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2013, 01:45:51 am »
[tired, not very creative]

Make a ship that uses some of that siege plasma damage spray logic. Instead of it doing 6.25%, it does 300% damage.

Have fun.
That could be interesting.  Lower damage, high numbers of targets, AoE at a distance... almost sounds like it needs to be an AI Eye.
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Offline LordSloth

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Re: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2013, 02:16:14 am »
I was struck by a thought... why 'just' implement recolonization by hybrids. Sure maybe they'd have some functionality there, but what I feel would be really delicious is... subversion (as part of advanced hybrids?). Imagine, if you will, an advanced hybrid infestor (announced like a dyson superhybrid). This hybrid would pick a specific human command station, convert it to a stationary and hostile human-hybrid infestation. After thirty seconds of being infested, it would generate a wave at half the level of effective AIP, but as often as a raid engine. On top of this, it could gain modules by converting full-fledged hybrids and eventually regain mobility and head for your command?

Offline contingencyplan

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Re: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2013, 02:49:40 am »
[tired, not very creative]

Make a ship that uses some of that siege plasma damage spray logic. Instead of it doing 6.25%, it does 300% damage.

Have fun.
That could be interesting.  Lower damage, high numbers of targets, AoE at a distance... almost sounds like it needs to be an AI Eye.

chemical_art, WHAT DID YOU DO?! :P


As a VERY unpolished idea, I've always liked storyline fluff in these sorts of things, and getting to know more about the AI, its purposes, what it's doing outside the galaxy would be something I'd enjoy. There's already been hints of it in the Fallen Spire campaign, and you obviously don't have to cover EVERYTHING (you can always just create more on-ramps / off-ramps for the next expansion ;) ).

So why not have a quest line, similar to Fallen Spire and the Champions, that follows this line of reasoning, fits with the hacking overhaul that was discussed previously, and fits with the "making the AI more devious" objective? Have certain hackable buildings that advance the storyline of the AI, what happened, etc. Upon hacking them, you also can apply the understanding you gain to build a new unit or make current ones more efficient or something --- or, again, cutting some of the Gordian knots as far as playstyle differences. For example, have the ability to build a few foldouts based on the new AI station types, kinda a poor man's modular CS.

However, you also activate some forgotten AI subroutine that provides it with new tactics that it can employ, even if it's just for a time. This could be a place for some of the ideas that are a bit too extreme to give the AI without giving some benefit to the player. For example, hacking something related to Eyes could unlock Eye Guardians for the AI. (Yeah, that's pretty weak, but y'all know the kinds of tactics y'all want to see better than I do.)

Offline orzelek

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Re: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2013, 05:49:48 am »
Is that armor/hull type revamp on the books for this expansion?

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2013, 06:59:26 am »
Haha, I'd love to see that done, but *ONLY* for the expansion owners.

You want an evenly balanced armor/hull type system? FAWK YOU BUY THE EXPANSION.

Arcen would never do that, but it would be absolutely hilarious to see regardless.
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2013, 08:07:53 am »
It seems like that might confuse a lot of players, but hey if you are playing hybrids you are an expert anyhow. :)
The stuff AIs buy from the Zenith Trader dont cost AIP either.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2013, 09:42:56 am »
Haha, I'd love to see that done, but *ONLY* for the expansion owners.

You want an evenly balanced armor/hull type system? FAWK YOU BUY THE EXPANSION.

Arcen would never do that, but it would be absolutely hilarious to see regardless.
That wouldn't happen though, as all changes to the base game have been for everyone, regardless of if they were made in an expansion or not. Only the bonus ships and expansion specific things (AI types, map types, mechanics such as Hybrids etc) are left out if you don't have the expansion.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2013, 11:20:28 am »
Yea, several things mentioned here aren't for expansion-work anyway, they're for the normal updates when they're gotten to.

And in general this expansion is already planned out, we're not looking for whole new mechanic suggestions for this particular expansion.  That said, practically every new mechanic planned for this expansion came from (or was inspired by) a previous player suggestion, so feel free to make them :)  Just don't count too much on them showing up in this particular expansion unless it happens to be something we'd already had on our list for it.
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Offline LordSloth

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Re: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2013, 11:51:06 am »
...Sniper Guard Post.
...Knockback Guard post (think military command, not tackle drone, doesn't require vulnerability to tractors)
Broken Golem Fortifications (that artillery golem in AI territory might still be broken and immobile, but it doesn't mean it's gun has stopped working)
...Glutton Guard Post - fires tackle drones that 'return to sender' with your ships, acts like a maw.
...Plasma Wormhole Guardianpost - only does splash damage to units covered by shields, otherwise hits only a single target, immobile like a tachyon guardian, tough like a post, spawns rarely and only on wormholes - instead of tachyon guardians.
...Forcefield Trapper Guardian. Impermeable forcefield that covers the exits into and out of a system, similar to the human trick of trapping a wave by blocking the routes out. Make it function like a Zenith Chameleon, while you're at it, only powering up and visible when it has a valid target to fire upon, otherwise the unit and its FF is invisible.
...Spider Carrier Guardian - spawns engine damaging drones, likes to kite. Do these Mobile Space Docks do engine repair anymore?
...Disco Guardian: I have no idea what they'd do, I just felt compelled to throw them in.
...More AI Taunts. More Frequent AI taunts. In Stephen Hawking's 'voice'.
...Bouncer  Guardpost: fires anti-starship 'arachnids' that attrtion five seconds after leaving their system of origin. Which they will do after swallowing one of your starships or low cap ships, of course. Preferably they'd drag them further into AI territory, but alternatively, they'd head straight for player territory (or neinzul rocketry corps spawning planet) and then die.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2013, 01:03:09 pm »
...Forcefield Trapper Guardian. Impermeable forcefield that covers the exits into and out of a system, similar to the human trick of trapping a wave by blocking the routes out. Make it function like a Zenith Chameleon, while you're at it, only powering up and visible when it has a valid target to fire upon, otherwise the unit and its FF is invisible.

Oh, you mean a Black Hole Machine?
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2013, 01:47:21 pm »
"unreasonable to fight"
Last time I played with Ancient Shadows and complex ships settings enabled: Tackle Drone Launchers, Zenith Medics, Spire Corvettes. After buff: Zenith Reprocessors.
Tackle Drone Launchers gave me horrible traumas so I've had Ancient Shadows disabled since the met them for the first time.

"so useless they aren't even worth being meat-shields"
Raptors, Electric Shuttles and Neinzul Commandos. + Autocannons for the player. They're pretty bad in AIs' hands too but not that bad.

"not worth the kilobytes of ram to store"
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« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 02:09:27 pm by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline LordSloth

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Re: Gearing up for the next AIW expansion: "Vengeance of the Machine"
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2013, 01:47:32 pm »
Pretty much, but lesser, covering one wormhole, and no AIP. Just some variety to replace tachyons with.