Author Topic: Games too balanced  (Read 8190 times)

Offline TIE Viper

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Re: Games too balanced
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2013, 08:42:05 am »
The next patch will make the GP not have bonuses against their counters.  This should make them significantly less aggrivating and definitely less so on eye systems.
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Games too balanced
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2013, 08:50:40 am »
Could fort have force field strapped on it without getting into modular territory?

They could be then actual durable roadblocks - but I thing dps loss would hurt especially in FS where that dps is very useful. Force field could offset it but if you couldn't cover that fort in more forcefields it would need to be very powerful to effectively block wormhole and replace that 3-4+ ones that you stack in FS.
A full cap of all Mark Fortresses does about 20,000,000 DPS.  There are 4 general use damage dealing turret types, each dealing about 2,500,000 to 3,000,000 DPS with all Marks.
In other words, Fortresses can provide about twice as much killing power as all turrets combined.  If Fortresses get their damage reduced, either all AI attacks need to be toned down in parallel, or something else capable of dealing damage needs to be introduced to compensate.

If more varieties of Fortress are introduced, with specialties like a Grav Fortress, a Riot Fortress, an Anti-Starship Fortress, etc, then reducing the base DPS and increasing HP would probably work because the player could make up for each individually weaker Fortress by building more of them.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Games too balanced
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2013, 11:43:01 am »
EDIT: Just a thought, but I think I'm leaning to Forts being tough but less DPS monsters.  So their supposed to hold the line while other stuff does the killing, rather than do it all themselves.  I think the AI Fort has closer to the right toughness, and maybe light engine damage might be appropriate (similar to Riot SS with a cap on engine%, but less actual ED/second).  Just enough to slow stuff down while your fleet in to deal with things.
Without major DPS how would they "hold the line"?  Kirrahe style?

More seriously, the only thing that comes to mind is to have them emit a forcefield and/or have tractor beams and/or grav effect, etc.  Or do you think the Riot Control Fortress effect would be sufficient?
First, bring their health up to AI Fort levels.  60 million hp for Mark I.  Then bump their armor up.  Somewhere around 10k-25k per mark.  That's enough that armor piercing ships actually matter against them, and ships with incidental armor piercing (Fighters, for example) don't ignore their armor.  Then give them the ED effect from Riots with "cannot reduce below 25%" and maybe 20 ED/mark.  With their huge range, that's a pretty potent ability to slow down any attacking force.  I honestly would probably also consider giving them radar dampening.  Finally drop their damage by 75-80% and change the polycrystal multiplier to 0.5.

I'd consider that a reasonable first try at roadblock-style Fortress.  I think some other defensive effects might help if needed, but those might require new stuff.  Like maybe it could have a chance to paralysis for 2 seconds, or maybe just a plain 1 second paralyze.

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I find the EYE's combined with the new GPs much more annoying then Forts. You already have to bring in a greatly reduced assault force, and ontop of that the GP will have easy work dealing with the limited numbers of whatever you send at them. Forts also are semi rare and many times can be ignored mostly, however you need to kill all GPs to take out EYEs, or to take over a system. Maybe introducing a 1-10 setting for GPs would solve a lot of the problems (shouldn't be too difficult hopefully?) and while we are at it have Raid starships a 1-10 or easy/med/hard. One of the things I love so much about AI is how customizable it is to different playstyles.   
I find a lot of people give Eyes too much weight.  With the exception of Nuclear Eyes and Core Eyes, I basically ignore them all.  They have an effect certainly, but most of the time they are tricking you into sending in too small a force.  Say I have 600 ships and the AI has 200 in a system with an Eye.  If I send in my ships use right-click targeting to take down all the critical targets, at worst the Eye will trigger until I've lost 200 ships.  I can normally kill all Guard Posts near the entry warp point and retreat losing at most half my force.  That gives me a safe beach head to get in next time, I haven't killed any of the AI ships so I still can fit 400 ships in without triggering it.  Often my second raid barely triggers the Eye.

You can also hilariously cheese Parasite Eyes if you have high cap ships, although its really more work than I consider worth it.  Because the AI generally has higher Mark ships than you, what you do is go in with a bunch of Mark I high cap ships and your Fighters.  You goal is to kill the higher Mark AI ships and let the AI replace them with your Mark I units.  Then go in as above targeting only Guard Posts and what have you, but now you are only taking DPS from weak Mark I ships, and you aren't even triggering the Eye at all.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Games too balanced
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2013, 11:54:00 am »
I object to nerfing fortresses without way more data and actual save games. They are absolutely essential in the gigantic battles I create. Their knowledge is expensive, energy requirements, relatively low count... I can see how a low AIP, low planet game could be dominated by a fortress, but I would rather see a clever AI offensive response than taking down one of the most fun units in this game and critical{*} unit to winning the fallen spire campaign.


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« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 11:55:51 am by Cyborg »
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Games too balanced
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2013, 01:23:29 pm »
Who said anything about nerfing them?

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Games too balanced
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2013, 01:39:09 pm »
Who said anything about nerfing them?
EDIT: Just a thought, but I think I'm leaning to Forts being tough but less DPS monsters.  So their supposed to hold the line while other stuff does the killing, rather than do it all themselves.  I think the AI Fort has closer to the right toughness, and maybe light engine damage might be appropriate (similar to Riot SS with a cap on engine%, but less actual ED/second).  Just enough to slow stuff down while your fleet in to deal with things.
Without major DPS how would they "hold the line"?  Kirrahe style?

More seriously, the only thing that comes to mind is to have them emit a forcefield and/or have tractor beams and/or grav effect, etc.  Or do you think the Riot Control Fortress effect would be sufficient?
First, bring their health up to AI Fort levels.  60 million hp for Mark I.  Then bump their armor up.  Somewhere around 10k-25k per mark.  That's enough that armor piercing ships actually matter against them, and ships with incidental armor piercing (Fighters, for example) don't ignore their armor.  Then give them the ED effect from Riots with "cannot reduce below 25%" and maybe 20 ED/mark.  With their huge range, that's a pretty potent ability to slow down any attacking force.  I honestly would probably also consider giving them radar dampening.  Finally drop their damage by 75-80% and change the polycrystal multiplier to 0.5.

I'd consider that a reasonable first try at roadblock-style Fortress.  I think some other defensive effects might help if needed, but those might require new stuff.  Like maybe it could have a chance to paralysis for 2 seconds, or maybe just a plain 1 second paralyze.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Games too balanced
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2013, 04:07:46 pm »
Ah, the classic confusion between a change and a nerf.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Games too balanced
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2013, 04:14:03 pm »
The proposed change certainly strikes me as a nerf. Exos rarely have enough firepower to defeat your defence outright (and if they do, something has gone wrong) so defence is primarily focused on killing them before they do X (get to the next system, kill a structure). Given that, DPS is the most important aspect of defence, so reducing the dps of a defensive structure is a nerf.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Games too balanced
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2013, 04:14:31 pm »
Ah, the classic confusion between a change and a nerf.

Or the surreptitious nerf under the guise of a change. Fortresses have always been good at handling waves. If you want to put oven mitts on them, they better have taunt. I like it just the way it is.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Games too balanced
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2013, 05:51:28 pm »
Quote
The proposed change certainly strikes me as a nerf. Exos rarely have enough firepower to defeat your defence outright (and if they do, something has gone wrong) so defence is primarily focused on killing them before they do X (get to the next system, kill a structure). Given that, DPS is the most important aspect of defence, so reducing the dps of a defensive structure is a nerf.
So let me get this straight.  From a range of 53,300 they are destroying the engines of everything coming at them, effectively acting as a Logistic Command Station III...oh wait, that's only a 50% slow, this is a 75% slow.  And did you know the one thing that breaks Exo leader speed boost?  Engine Damage.  And while everything is crawling past the Fortress, they can't even shoot at it!  Worse, when it finally can, the Fortress has 10 times the armor and three times the health.  And now let's consider the 1 second paralysis on a 6 second reload.  That's 16.7% reduction in both speed and DPS against any target, not just the Fortress.  Let's not forget even with reduced DPS, the Fortress is still putting out 33% more damage than a cap of Zenith Bombards.  That's ONE Fortress.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Games too balanced
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2013, 05:58:33 pm »
Hooray for cross posting. ;D

I'd like it if the AI raid starships kept the current "mirroring" of stats they have to human ones currently, same in every way but HP, where the AI versions have 1/2 the HP.

Thus, if we want to buff human ones without touching AI ones, reducing knowledge costs seems reasonable.

Or, if we want to break the symmetry, we could remove AI raid starships (or at least that name for them), and give them a new unit named something different (so there is no expectation of symmetry), but serves a similar role.

Similar argument for the fortresses. Either keep the symmetry (which would include not only things like just adjusting stats and multipliers, but also things like splitting the fortresses into several different variants), or make the AI units called something entirely different.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Games too balanced
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2013, 06:02:30 pm »
Quote
The proposed change certainly strikes me as a nerf. Exos rarely have enough firepower to defeat your defence outright (and if they do, something has gone wrong) so defence is primarily focused on killing them before they do X (get to the next system, kill a structure). Given that, DPS is the most important aspect of defence, so reducing the dps of a defensive structure is a nerf.
So let me get this straight.  From a range of 53,300 they are destroying the engines of everything coming at them, effectively acting as a Logistic Command Station III...oh wait, that's only a 50% slow, this is a 75% slow.  And did you know the one thing that breaks Exo leader speed boost?  Engine Damage.  And while everything is crawling past the Fortress, they can't even shoot at it!  Worse, when it finally can, the Fortress has 10 times the armor and three times the health.  And now let's consider the 1 second paralysis on a 6 second reload.  That's 16.7% reduction in both speed and DPS against any target, not just the Fortress.  Let's not forget even with reduced DPS, the Fortress is still putting out 33% more damage than a cap of Zenith Bombards.  That's ONE Fortress.

I'm generally going to hold my opinion on the changes until I've had a chance to test them out.  I will say that I am very dependent on the DPS of all the forts.
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Games too balanced
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2013, 07:33:14 pm »
I'm generally going to hold my opinion on the changes until I've had a chance to test them out.  I will say that I am very dependent on the DPS of all the forts.
Very much true here as well.
A full set of all Marks of all Turrets (save HBC) is about half the DPS of the full set of Fortress Marks.

That's a LOT of DPS to be losing.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Games too balanced
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2013, 07:55:21 pm »
Forts would be very destabilizing to change.  I think it could be interesting, but it really would mess with a lot of players.  Forts are (afaik) the backbone of any non-superweapon super-chokepoint by sheer weight of dps.  Even backbones can be broken here if we need to, but I'm not there yet ;)

But I wanted to know exactly what the proposal was.  And this would be one way to get away from "non-bombers need not apply" forts, which I think is worth pursuing at some stage.  Massive multipliers (either way < 1 or way > 1) just don't work very well for overall fun value.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Games too balanced
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2013, 08:20:36 pm »
Quote
The proposed change certainly strikes me as a nerf. Exos rarely have enough firepower to defeat your defence outright (and if they do, something has gone wrong) so defence is primarily focused on killing them before they do X (get to the next system, kill a structure). Given that, DPS is the most important aspect of defence, so reducing the dps of a defensive structure is a nerf.
So let me get this straight.  From a range of 53,300 they are destroying the engines of everything coming at them, effectively acting as a Logistic Command Station III...oh wait, that's only a 50% slow, this is a 75% slow.  And did you know the one thing that breaks Exo leader speed boost?  Engine Damage.  And while everything is crawling past the Fortress, they can't even shoot at it!  Worse, when it finally can, the Fortress has 10 times the armor and three times the health.  And now let's consider the 1 second paralysis on a 6 second reload.  That's 16.7% reduction in both speed and DPS against any target, not just the Fortress.  Let's not forget even with reduced DPS, the Fortress is still putting out 33% more damage than a cap of Zenith Bombards.  That's ONE Fortress.

This is all irrelevant. You are comparing what exactly? Logistics, leaders, what?
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