Games too balanced

[keith.lamothe]

Ok, thanks for spelling it out.

EDIT: In a counter vs counter fight the Guard Post should lose and destroy about 15% or 20% of the fleet ships. At the moment moment the Guard Post destroys like 27% - 60% depending on Guard Post. The main problems are Mark IV AI planets adjacent to the player's home planet and Missile-, Needler- and Laser Guard Posts.

Iirc I goofed on the bonus types and each of those actually has a bonus against the triangle ship that counters it, right?  Or is that not the case?  If it is, just fixing that would probably accomplish the lethality reduction you're looking for (or more).

If not then it would require an overall dps nerf which gets into the main question: just how much firepower should one of these have?  Post-poll I asked that and the response I wound up going with was "comparable to a cap of equivalent fleet ships".  But with way less health than said equivalent cap.  Of course, as you've pointed out, the guard posts tend to get the first salvos in and that can be a real bummer for the fleet ships.

[Kahuna]

Ok, thanks for spelling it out.

EDIT: In a counter vs counter fight the Guard Post should lose and destroy about 15% or 20% of the fleet ships. At the moment moment the Guard Post destroys like 27% - 60% depending on Guard Post. The main problems are Mark IV AI planets adjacent to the player's home planet and Missile-, Needler- and Laser Guard Posts.

Iirc I goofed on the bonus types and each of those actually has a bonus against the triangle ship that counters it, right?  Or is that not the case?  If it is, just fixing that would probably accomplish the lethality reduction you're looking for (or more).

MRLS Guard Post has same bonuses as MRLS Turret. (6 Light, 6 Neutron, 6 Swarmer, 6 Ultra-Light, 6 Close-Combat)
Missile GP has same bonuses as Missile Turret. (6 Medium, 6 Neutron, 6 Ultra-Light, 6 Composite, 6 Polycrystal)
Needler GP has same bonuses as Basic Turret. (6 Heavy, 6 Artillery, 6 Ultra-Heavy, 6 Structural)
Laser GP has same bonuses as Laser Turret. (6 Heavy, 6 Refractive, 6 Ultra-Heavy, 6 Polycrystal)
They're like AI's versions of turrets now.

And yes that might fix it.

[keith.lamothe]

MRLS Guard Post has same bonuses as MRLS Turret.
Missile GP has same bonuses as Missile Turret.
Needler GP has same bonuses as Basic Turret.
Laser GP has same bonuses as Laser Turret.
They're like AI's versions of turrets now.. except GPs have damage multipliers of 6 while turrets have 2,4.

Right, that's what I did: assigned each of the main-combat guard posts a conceptual turret type, gave them 6x multipliers, and then corrected their actual dps to give them a total bonus-dps comparable to a cap of same-mark fleet ships.  So their base dps is way lower than the 2.4x turrets (iirc, at least; particularly considering turrets tend to have roughly 3x the cap dps of a comparable fleet ship).

But in the process it seems I neglected to realize I was making their hull types and bonus types such that they counter their triangle counter.  Which means their counter can kill them, but suffers remarkably high casualties.

[Kahuna]

But in the process it seems I neglected to realize I was making their hull types and bonus types such that they counter their triangle counter.  Which means their counter can kill them, but suffers remarkably high casualties.

Right. I get it now.

[vlkm]

I guess the game all of a sudden took a 180' and I'm adjusting. For me it used to be about scouting, clearing scout paths, cherry picking worlds while I balance my AI threat (doesn't go over ~190) every hour (S.Leaders) and building a chokepoint with Black hole, armor boosters and radar (main game was spent defending vs AI). Mid game was spent taking over 1/2-3/4 of the map and getting ready to assault the homeworlds (while never getting above 190 AI). 
Now mico-assaulting every GP just drags the game out so much more then it really needs to. It's not "difficult" to take one out usually (if you still know how to exploit other units/mechanics), it just requires lots of time that is spent on micro an rebuilding()resources).  For eg, in my latest game I had a mk4 world two hops away that I was cleansing of the AI. Thanks to a fort over the entry hole, two MLRS GPs close by and 3 Missile GPs in range along with an eye, it dragged this encounter out way more then it needed to be. Some person mentioned strategy, however as I said previously, with the game trying to be balanced, a lot of ways that used to work don't anymore. Combat has been  funneled down into "theres only a couple of ways to approach this or die (hello wrath lance!)". In the end I had to go build spire rams and bring them in under a cloak to destroy the Fort so that I could then lure most of the remaining AI fleet away from the MLRS and bring in a cap of my mk2 bombers (limited force to not power Eye) and repeat many times (as that firepower took out my bombers).
Sure there might be a trick or few still to learn, but once you know how to exploit mechanics/units (don't know how else I would have taken out that Fort without cloak+rams, would have lead to very tedious other ways) the strat in killing GP's isnt there, and only time+resources is whats delaying you (tedium).   

Also a little offtopic, I read talk of wanting to do something about crystals. How about they enable us to build units over their natural cap, so we can choose what units we need more of at a given time (with steep cost like mercs?)

[Hearteater]

Honestly, this is really more an issue with Forts than buffed Guard Posts.  Forts have come under fire many times on the boards because there is basically one way to deal with them (well, two if you count knocking them out of supply).  It seems that whenever someone hits a really sticky problem, Forts are almost always involved.  I really think now that Guard Posts actually do something, Forts probably need to come away from the "none but polycrystal shall pass" design.  They've caused problems before the GP buff, and I'm guessing it is only going to get worse now.  Actually, I'm waiting for the first person to come across the buffed Super Fort.  That thing is a beast.

[TechSY730]

Honestly, this is really more an issue with Forts than buffed Guard Posts.  Forts have come under fire many times on the boards because there is basically one way to deal with them (well, two if you count knocking them out of supply).  It seems that whenever someone hits a really sticky problem, Forts are almost always involved.  I really think now that Guard Posts actually do something, Forts probably need to come away from the "none but polycrystal shall pass" design.  They've caused problems before the GP buff, and I'm guessing it is only going to get worse now.  Actually, I'm waiting for the first person to come across the buffed Super Fort.  That thing is a beast.

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=4777

[Toranth]

Honestly, this is really more an issue with Forts than buffed Guard Posts.  Forts have come under fire many times on the boards because there is basically one way to deal with them (well, two if you count knocking them out of supply).  It seems that whenever someone hits a really sticky problem, Forts are almost always involved.  I really think now that Guard Posts actually do something, Forts probably need to come away from the "none but polycrystal shall pass" design.  They've caused problems before the GP buff, and I'm guessing it is only going to get worse now.  Actually, I'm waiting for the first person to come across the buffed Super Fort.  That thing is a beast.

Been there.  I played a Clusters map where the only way out of my cluster to half the galaxy was past a Mk IV system with an AI SuperFortress.  The entry wormhole was just at the edge of the SuperFortress's range, and the exit wormhole was halfway across the system.  To make it worse, to get to the SuperFortress in a straight line required passing over several guardposts and the Command Station.  Basically, I had to half-neuter the system while under fire.  I used Champions, Cloakers, Mini-Rams, and Bomber waves, and it still took over an hour.

I rather enjoyed it.  I like SuperFortresses to be Super.  To be a serious threat.  To HURT, and make you want to go out of you way to avoid them.
Fortresses should be the same, only less so.

Finally, don't forget Fortresses are the human player's primary Big Bad defensive unit.  Unless you are suggesting nerfing only the AI Fortresses by, say, bringing them down to match Human Fortress stats?

[TIE Viper]

Can't think of any other three words that perfectly describes dealing with the superfortress since its buff...intensely bomber grindy.  The regular marks, not so much so.  Opening up options for going after the superfortress a bit imo would be nice.  And on the GP, I've been lurking around this forum thread for a couple of days.  Personally I'm undecided.  I can relate where everybody is coming from on both sides.  Now, while systems have the potential to be oh soooo much not fun, before, the guard posts were really quite dull.  The trick is to find the right balance point.  I wish I had an idea or three of what possible directions that would be in...   

[Hearteater]

Human Forts are stronger than AI Forts currently in terms of range.  AI Forts have more health, but really the problem is without super weapons or expansion toys, you're really dependant on using Polycrystal to take them down.  You yourself used Champions (Ancient Shadows), Cloakers (Zenith Remnant) and Mini-Rams (Light of the Spire) in addition to the Bombers.  Someone player the base game has none of those, and no super weapons.  That kind of puts them in a really bad position.

I'm wondering if maybe Forts should have their damage reduced by something huge, like 80%, and change the Polycrystal multiplier from 0.01 to 1.  So they'll do x20 damage to Polycrystal, but x0.2 damage to everything else compared to now.  That really lets you bring in a better fleet complement.  Also, I can't believe how bad Fort armor is.  It really should be 10k/Mark, especially if their damage is going to come down.

EDIT: Just a thought, but I think I'm leaning to Forts being tough but less DPS monsters.  So their supposed to hold the line while other stuff does the killing, rather than do it all themselves.  I think the AI Fort has closer to the right toughness, and maybe light engine damage might be appropriate (similar to Riot SS with a cap on engine%, but less actual ED/second).  Just enough to slow stuff down while your fleet in to deal with things.

[keith.lamothe]

EDIT: Just a thought, but I think I'm leaning to Forts being tough but less DPS monsters.  So their supposed to hold the line while other stuff does the killing, rather than do it all themselves.  I think the AI Fort has closer to the right toughness, and maybe light engine damage might be appropriate (similar to Riot SS with a cap on engine%, but less actual ED/second).  Just enough to slow stuff down while your fleet in to deal with things.

Without major DPS how would they "hold the line"?  Kirrahe style?

More seriously, the only thing that comes to mind is to have them emit a forcefield and/or have tractor beams and/or grav effect, etc.  Or do you think the Riot Control Fortress effect would be sufficient?

[Histidine]

Widowfort, Logistics Station fort and/or engine-maiming fort could be interesting.

[Cinth]

EDIT: Just a thought, but I think I'm leaning to Forts being tough but less DPS monsters.  So their supposed to hold the line while other stuff does the killing, rather than do it all themselves.  I think the AI Fort has closer to the right toughness, and maybe light engine damage might be appropriate (similar to Riot SS with a cap on engine%, but less actual ED/second).  Just enough to slow stuff down while your fleet in to deal with things.

Without major DPS how would they "hold the line"?  Kirrahe style?

More seriously, the only thing that comes to mind is to have them emit a forcefield and/or have tractor beams and/or grav effect, etc.  Or do you think the Riot Control Fortress effect would be sufficient?

Give it a high target priority?   The RCF does sound pretty cool.... I want to ring a wormhole or two with them

[vlkm]

I find the EYE's combined with the new GPs much more annoying then Forts. You already have to bring in a greatly reduced assault force, and ontop of that the GP will have easy work dealing with the limited numbers of whatever you send at them. Forts also are semi rare and many times can be ignored mostly, however you need to kill all GPs to take out EYEs, or to take over a system. Maybe introducing a 1-10 setting for GPs would solve a lot of the problems (shouldn't be too difficult hopefully?) and while we are at it have Raid starships a 1-10 or easy/med/hard. One of the things I love so much about AI is how customizable it is to different playstyles.   

[orzelek]

Could fort have force field strapped on it without getting into modular territory?

They could be then actual durable roadblocks - but I thing dps loss would hurt especially in FS where that dps is very useful. Force field could offset it but if you couldn't cover that fort in more forcefields it would need to be very powerful to effectively block wormhole and replace that 3-4+ ones that you stack in FS.

It would give forts new function - I would guess AI ones would also have this functionality. It wouldn't stop stuff like raid starships but these aren't afraid by forts much now due to dampening.