Questions after my first full game (Fallen Spire *Spoilers*)

[Jade E.]

Hi all-

  I just finished my first victory.  I've played a number of games since I started at the LotS release, and learned a lot of lessons of the form 'Try again, and don't do X next time'.  Part of that is probably that I stubbornly insisted on pursuing a FS-based scorched earth strategy, obviously without the experience to pull it off.

  For the record, the game was 7/7 random easier (sledge hammer/fortress baron), 80/simple, complex ships, FS/Hard Spirecraft/CLs/Hard Golems/Dyson/Resistance Fighters/Traders.  All minor factions at default scale.  No auto-AIP since I figured the CLs let me get that effect, with a chance to control it later (but see below).  I played on the latest release, 5.035.

  The campaign clocked in at 73 hours game time... which includes running at +10 overnight twice, just to see if my chokepoint would survive.  The second night I lost 5 shields (out of... all of them.)

  I ran into a number of small problems though, and I'm not sure if they are known or not.  I searched Mantis and didn't find reference to any of these, so I thought I'd ask the more experienced people if they are working as intended or if I should report them (or if I just suck at search terms...):

Exo-galactic strike forces + Hunter/Killers:
  Having both hard minor faction strike forces hit simultaneously was rough at the beginning.  I had to seriously save scum once around the 6 hour mark when the first Armored Golem came through.  (And I literally mean through...)  At one point (don't remember exactly, maybe 13-14 hours in?), the strike forces started including a Hunter/Killer Mk2.  Those are nasty, and very nearly popped my bubble of every-shield-I-could-build before my ball of every-ship-and-turret-I-could-build killed it.  The thing I think might be a bug is... they stopped coming.  I never saw higher than a Mk2 (until the FS finale hit the AI homeworlds and like 9 spawned and got roflstomped).  And after maybe 5 strike forces that contained a single Mk2, even those stopped coming, seemingly replaced with more spirecraft or golems.  This was significantly easier, and the exo-forces posed no further threat to my chokepoint even without my fleet present, without any significant upgrades (until much later).  Shouldn't Hunter/Killers continue to spawn, and get stronger, through out the game?  Did the RNG just love me?

Spire Civilian Leaders:
  This might just be me mis-interpreting their description... but I assumed I would have to capture these for them to lower the AIP.  This is not the case.  Simply destroying the AI command station causes them to switch from raising to lowering the AIP (although it does not immediately reset their hour timer, like capturing them does).  After some deep strikes, my AIP was going down slightly but periodically through the rest of the game, and there was nothing the AI could do about it since they still 'owned' the CLs.

Spire Final Fleet Modules:
  Small thing, but I owned the modules on the big ships in the spire exo-fleet.  This didn't have any particular effect... except that I could scrap them.  I disarmed one battle group for the hell of it. (Well, as disarmed as they get while still having their built in weapon, but I did entirely de-shield them.)

Spire Final Fleet targeting:
  Not sure if this was a bug or just due to the lag I was experiencing once the exo-fleet came, but while they destroyed one AI home command station, in the other home system they destroyed everything else then just went on patrol between wormholes, I had to bring my own fleet in to kill the station.

Group-Move with Teleporting units = fail
  OK, as I double checked these I did find this on Mantis, and voted for it.


  Sorry for the massive first post.  This is a truly amazing game.  I'll probably be looking to try coop now, and most of my friends are caught up in the new Civ5 expansion, so I expect I'll post on the coop forum later

-JD

[Martyn van Buren]

73 hours?? Wow. Is that normal for 'maximalist' players? Personally if I get to 12 I feel like I've had a pretty epic game, but I go for a fairly low-AIP route.

[laughingman]

Welcome to the forums, and congratulations on your first win! It's pretty impressive considering all the sources of exo-waves you had.

I can't speak to some of your fallen spire questions because I haven't ever pursued it very far. From what I know of exo-waves (and I'm sure someone will step in to correct me if I'm wrong) the AI gets a "budget" to spend on ships to spend how it sees fit. Hunter Killers cost quite a lot, so it's not inconceivable that several spire craft would take their place. The wave composition is pretty variable.

[BobTheJanitor]

  The campaign clocked in at 73 hours game time... which includes running at +10 overnight twice, just to see if my chokepoint would survive.  The second night I lost 5 shields (out of... all of them.)

That's interesting. I don't think I've ever tried just letting it run for a long time to see what happens. I play with a +1 AIP per hour increase though, so that would be bad for me. But even without that, I would think that the AI reinforcement would be ridiculous after that amount of time. I salute your defense for being able to hold up to all those Spire waves though.

Sorry for the massive first post.

Oh you'll fit right in, don't worry. 

[PokerChen]

Spire Civilian Leaders:
  This might just be me mis-interpreting their description... but I assumed I would have to capture these for them to lower the AIP.  This is not the case.  Simply destroying the AI command station causes them to switch from raising to lowering the AIP (although it does not immediately reset their hour timer, like capturing them does).  After some deep strikes, my AIP was going down slightly but periodically through the rest of the game, and there was nothing the AI could do about it since they still 'owned' the CLs.

O_o Sounds like a bug/exploit.

[laughingman]

Spire Civilian Leaders:
  This might just be me mis-interpreting their description... but I assumed I would have to capture these for them to lower the AIP.  This is not the case.  Simply destroying the AI command station causes them to switch from raising to lowering the AIP (although it does not immediately reset their hour timer, like capturing them does).  After some deep strikes, my AIP was going down slightly but periodically through the rest of the game, and there was nothing the AI could do about it since they still 'owned' the CLs.

O_o Sounds like a bug/exploit.

I'm not too sure it's that great of an exploit, if it is one. You still have to take the 20 AIP hit from destroying the command station so you're not going to break even on that for 7 hours after you free the Civilian Leader. In most games, that's not going to be worth doing. 73 hour games...different story.

[Eternaly_Lost]

Spire Civilian Leaders:
  This might just be me mis-interpreting their description... but I assumed I would have to capture these for them to lower the AIP.  This is not the case.  Simply destroying the AI command station causes them to switch from raising to lowering the AIP (although it does not immediately reset their hour timer, like capturing them does).  After some deep strikes, my AIP was going down slightly but periodically through the rest of the game, and there was nothing the AI could do about it since they still 'owned' the CLs.

O_o Sounds like a bug/exploit.

I'm not too sure it's that great of an exploit, if it is one. You still have to take the 20 AIP hit from destroying the command station so you're not going to break even on that for 7 hours after you free the Civilian Leader. In most games, that's not going to be worth doing. 73 hour games...different story.

I think the target length for a game is around 10 hours, but I could be wrong. Still that means in the average game, you would not break even unless you clear the system before the 2 hour mark. As there would be 2 AIP from those first two hours that you need to cancel as well.

[Wanderer]

Spire Civilian Leaders:
  This might just be me mis-interpreting their description... but I assumed I would have to capture these for them to lower the AIP.  This is not the case.  Simply destroying the AI command station causes them to switch from raising to lowering the AIP (although it does not immediately reset their hour timer, like capturing them does).  After some deep strikes, my AIP was going down slightly but periodically through the rest of the game, and there was nothing the AI could do about it since they still 'owned' the CLs.

O_o Sounds like a bug/exploit.

I'm not too sure it's that great of an exploit, if it is one. You still have to take the 20 AIP hit from destroying the command station so you're not going to break even on that for 7 hours after you free the Civilian Leader. In most games, that's not going to be worth doing. 73 hour games...different story.

I think the target length for a game is around 10 hours, but I could be wrong. Still that means in the average game, you would not break even unless you clear the system before the 2 hour mark. As there would be 2 AIP from those first two hours that you need to cancel as well.

Target Length is 10-13 hours for a game on average according to the wiki.  My games tend to run a bit on the long side, usually 12-14 hours.  That said, CLs in their current incarnation are actually detriments to the player, not bonuses nor even neutral.  Just something to keep in mind.  I find it interesting that AI colored CLs on neutral worlds are boons to the player, but I really don't see it as broken.  It's more like the Dyson, where you end up taking a bigger risk if you control the world.  It's a special case scenario (nothing on the planet you want to take) where you still have to pay the AIP cost to control it.  You just don't have to defend it until the end of time.

I don't see it being a big deal, but the documentation should explain it in the wiki and perhaps the description itself.

[BobTheJanitor]

Bear in mind that the civilian leaders have already been changed a bit. In their first incarnation they only reduced AIP by 1 per hour after you freed them. At least with the current setup there's a bit of a chance to break even.

But really, they are one of those things you add to the game to give yourself a bit of a challenge. They're definitely not intended to make things easier. And I don't think they're really something that you're meant to free and then protect. It's more just something that you have to decide if you want to blow up to stop the AIP increase, or take the system if there's anything else worthwhile on it and get the AIP decrease as a little bonus. Taking out the command station in a system just because there's a spire civ leader on it and nothing else is not a recommended strategy.

[laughingman]

In the few games I have played with them, there have usually been two or three leaders on planets I wanted to take anyway. They were mildly useful but I would have rather had three data centers to destroy. I agree with BobTheJanitor: they're not really meant to make things easier. They do add an interesting story element and could be used to construct some fun scenarios. Turn on Fallen Spire, Civilian Leaders, Spirecraft, and play against a Spireling AI. Make it a personal goal to free all the Civilian Leaders to improve your relationship with the Spire.