Author Topic: Forts in times of distributed defenses  (Read 21156 times)

Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Forts in times of distributed defenses
« on: June 07, 2014, 10:22:40 am »
#1) Making normal forts per-planet rather than per-galaxy.

Currently forts are per-galaxy, making exactly where to deploy each individual fort an interesting tradeoff.

Hypothetically.

In practice, this strongly supports the practice of single chokepoints to tank the AI on, where all the best defenses are assembled.

I'd suggest that in these days of distributed defenses, much would be gained by making the normal fort caps be per planet rather than per galaxy. Minimal AIP games aren't able to afford running many forts either way, due to a considerable knowledge unlock cost and high energy expenditures, so they would be minimally affected, if at all, but more conquest oriented games, whether they be of the "what memo?", Fallen Spire, or just somebody playing on normal difficulty rather than being a masochist and thus being able to reach 600-700 AIP victories, would give players yet another incentive to consider focusing on distributed defenses and defense in depth, so long as they could afford the substantial energy cost.

My only worry is whether this might be usurping the mini-fort role, but that seems unlikely. If you are going to be building a few defenses in a system just to ensure there is something in case a few enemies slip by, there's a huge difference between paying 90,000 energy for a Fort1 (and additional energy for some turrets to kill Polycrystal) and 18,000 for 2 mini-forts (and possibly some turrets, but mini-forts don't suffer from being unable to kill Polycrystal). Forts are just too expensive in energy costs to allow such deployment, just like deploying a full set of all per-planet turrets on each planet isn't remotely econonomically feasible.



#2) Enabling multiple Mod forts for knowledge

Currently there are a lot of defensive unlocks, more than enough for any minimal-AIP game, but in a large scale conquest game you'll run out of defensive unlocks and opportunities to increase defensive power substantially once things start to turn interesting, unless you have expansions and special expansion goodies like trader toys, Golems, or champions (for mod forts) enabled, where these alternative mechanics allow you to increase defenses significantly in addition to anything that can be unlocked with knowledge.

The current mod-fort unlock costs 3k for a single one, which is a fair price considering its benefits, but you are stuck with that one.

Enable champions, and you'll eventually get multiple even better mod-forts, and select multiple champions and it gets even better (verging on the absurd). If you use the alternative champion progress, the cost of these mod-forts is effectively knowledge, meaning that it corresponds to an AIP cost.

Enable Golems, and you get defensive powerhouses that dwarf the power provided by mod-forts, and each Golem's cost in AIP is - at most - the 20 AIP that would be gained from knocking off a single AI planet and plundering the knowledge. OTOH, Golems unlike mod-forts do come with the risk that if you lose them, you cannot rebuild them, which somewhat balances their awesome power at the low cost they have.

Each of these - and the trader toys as well - come with the drawback that the AI gets something too (unless you choose easy settings, of course), but what the AI gets comes nowhere near the defensive power these things grant, which is fine and why players happily use them for defenses in the first place.

So given this, how about making it possible to unlock further mod-forts at a price of 3k each? To prevent this from reaching grotesque heights in a FS/what AIP? game, just keep the total number somewhat under control, just like Golems, which are in finite supply.

I'm thinking:

3k current modular fortress unlock, prerequisite for:
9k 3xmodular fortresses, prerequisite for
18k 6x modular fortresses
for a total possible expenditure of 30k knowledge for 10 modular fortresses with the same stats as the current.

This would not devalue the existing fortresses, where a total of 12k knowledge gives you 5,4,3, marks 2 and 3 having substantially higher damage at 53k range, where the mod-forts primary damage-dealing is in their shorter module ranges.

One the one hand, I can't help feeling that allowing the player to potentially build another 9 mod-forts at a single chokepoint planet, should he so desire (and have the energy to spare), is a borderline insane increase in defensive power, even if the cost is 27k ~ 9 planets ~ 180 AIP and thus prohibitive for anything but large scale conquest games, be they "what memo?" or Fallen Spire oriented.

On the other hand, I know that such an increase in defensive power is already available at less AIP cost, so long as Golems, champion mod forts, and/or trader toys are used, which would argue that what seems borderline insane to me is already considered sane.


#3) If both of these were adopted

We'd have forts and normal turrets occupying the same niche (distributed defense, defense in depth), and mod-forts and special turrets occupying the same niche (concentrated power), which strikes me as elegant. Now, elegance isn't a strong argument in favour of adopting ideas, but it is something. ;)


So have I gone completely off my rocker here, or is there a germ of a useful idea or two in this?

....Actually, better that you only answer the second question, as the two questions are not mutually exclusive.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Forts in times of distributed defenses
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2014, 10:32:38 am »
Neither a pro nor con, but: it would beg the question of why not make all defenses (forcefields included) per-planet.  If so, we should probably focus on the broader issue.
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Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: Forts in times of distributed defenses
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2014, 10:51:57 am »
Neither a pro nor con, but: it would beg the question of why not make all defenses (forcefields included) per-planet.  If so, we should probably focus on the broader issue.
If we want to look at the broader issue, a history lesson might be needed for those of us who are new to the game: What was the original reason for having defenses be per-galaxy, and how much of that reasoning remains relevant with how the game has developed over the years?

And here I am reduced to guessing.

Reading some of the beginner entries on the wiki from the earliest days, it is clear that the game once featured much larger scale conquest as a norm than the current minimum-AIP model to succeed reflects. In such days - and assuming for the moment a dev. desire to keep the economy simple rather than spending much time on energy balancing - one easy approach to adding strategic complexity to defense deployments would have been to make them per-galaxy; Players would be expected to have several or even many vulnerable planets at the same time, and the strategic challenge was where to deploy a severely limited number of defenses in a game environment where one did not need to make every possible contact planet a deathtrap by piling huge defenses on it.

But even if this is part of the reasoning, which I suspect but do not know, it was probably not all of the reasoning. There's more than a hint that this might also tie into the philosophy of tier caps, to ensure that lower tiers of (defenses, ships, whatever) remain in use even when better options are available. (E.g. "use the best stuff where it is most important, the second best in less important locations". Which doesn't really go for the fleet any longer, as dividing your fleet mostly allows for defeat in detail.)

So on this issue, I'll have to yield the floor to those of you with more knowledge of the game's development and history, because while I like to look forwards, there are usually pretty good reasons for historical baggage, that needs to be known before discussing a complete overhaul. :)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 10:53:55 am by Peter Ebbesen »
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Forts in times of distributed defenses
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2014, 11:04:29 am »
Neither a pro nor con, but: it would beg the question of why not make all defenses (forcefields included) per-planet.  If so, we should probably focus on the broader issue.

Considering how you did the turrets, I don't think it would be a bad idea.  If the conversion goes that way, the Fortress King approves :)
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Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: Forts in times of distributed defenses
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2014, 11:13:05 am »
Neither a pro nor con, but: it would beg the question of why not make all defenses (forcefields included) per-planet.  If so, we should probably focus on the broader issue.

Considering how you did the turrets, I don't think it would be a bad idea.  If the conversion goes that way, the Fortress King approves :)
Hmm, are you thinking in terms of making e.g. Fort 1&2 and Forcefield I&II per-planet and half-number, with mark 3 per-galaxy? :)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Forts in times of distributed defenses
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2014, 11:14:56 am »
If we want to look at the broader issue, a history lesson might be needed for those of us who are new to the game: What was the original reason for having defenses be per-galaxy, and how much of that reasoning remains relevant with how the game has developed over the years?
The game's development started in 2008 (iirc), initially released around May 2009, and I started working on it in January 2010, well after major iteration and re-iteration had been done.

So honestly I don't know the original intent behind the turret caps, nor do I think it's of primary relevance at this point.  I try to not alter the core game's philosophy (things like "the player controls the pace" and "AIP is dangerous") but other than that I mainly try to take things in the direction indicated by the community's gameplay experiences, where that agrees factually/etc with the information I have.

But to address the question more specifically: iirc, before the third expansion (Light of the Spire) _nothing_ had per-planet caps.  So the mechanic just wasn't there.  It wasn't easy to add, either ;)  As a secondary reason, I suspect it was believed that per-planet-cap defenses would make the game too easy.  And at the time that was probably true.  The AI has much bigger, nastier, and pointier teeth now.


The main reason I can see against making all defenses per-planet-cap is the same reason that stopped multiple proposals through the years to do basically what we just did to turrets (make them mainly per-planet).  That reason being widespread community coronary failure when the idea was proposed ;)

But I think most folks here have come around to distributed-defense as more fun than chokepoint-defense, as long as both remain possible.


The main reason I can see in favor of making all defenses per-planet-cap is that it will be much more intuitive that way: basically if it's a mobile unit (can go through wormholes) it has a galaxy-wide cap, and if it can't it has a per-planet cap.  We may need to have some exceptions to that like trader toys (the first one of you to put ZPGs on every planet will be shot) but that could be noted specifically for them and the general rule would hold.
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Offline Tridus

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Re: Forts in times of distributed defenses
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2014, 11:24:28 am »
Upside - in this case, I can't drop every fort on one super choke point world that is basically invincible.

Downside - given time, I can have so many systems with serious defense that the Ai will need far more firepower to actually get to my home world.

I'd only be in favor I'd the cap comes way down, to 1.

In the case of force fields, I really don't think that's a good idea. Choosing where to use those strategically matters, just giving them to me everywhere is only going to help my ability to make every world a choke point level defensive wall,and that's just insane. The goal shouldn't be to take the super choke I can build once that the Ai can't beat, and let me build it fifteen times instead.

Of all defenses are going per planet, a major rethink of how the defenses work and interact is in order. Mines, Gravity turrets,heavy beam cannons, zenith time manipulates... This goes to problematic places pretty quickly.

Offline Fleet Unity

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Re: Forts in times of distributed defenses
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2014, 11:25:15 am »
If we want to look at the broader issue, a history lesson might be needed for those of us who are new to the game: What was the original reason for having defenses be per-galaxy, and how much of that reasoning remains relevant with how the game has developed over the years?
The game's development started in 2008 (iirc), initially released around May 2009, and I started working on it in January 2010, well after major iteration and re-iteration had been done.

So honestly I don't know the original intent behind the turret caps, nor do I think it's of primary relevance at this point.  I try to not alter the core game's philosophy (things like "the player controls the pace" and "AIP is dangerous") but other than that I mainly try to take things in the direction indicated by the community's gameplay experiences, where that agrees factually/etc with the information I have.

But to address the question more specifically: iirc, before the third expansion (Light of the Spire) _nothing_ had per-planet caps.  So the mechanic just wasn't there.  It wasn't easy to add, either ;)  As a secondary reason, I suspect it was believed that per-planet-cap defenses would make the game too easy.  And at the time that was probably true.  The AI has much bigger, nastier, and pointier teeth now.


The main reason I can see against making all defenses per-planet-cap is the same reason that stopped multiple proposals through the years to do basically what we just did to turrets (make them mainly per-planet).  That reason being widespread community coronary failure when the idea was proposed ;)

But I think most folks here have come around to distributed-defense as more fun than chokepoint-defense, as long as both remain possible.


The main reason I can see in favor of making all defenses per-planet-cap is that it will be much more intuitive that way: basically if it's a mobile unit (can go through wormholes) it has a galaxy-wide cap, and if it can't it has a per-planet cap.  We may need to have some exceptions to that like trader toys (the first one of you to put ZPGs on every planet will be shot) but that could be noted specifically for them and the general rule would hold.

I like this ides and I agree being able to build more that 1 ZPG would make energy too easy to come by, maybe If this is changed for the trader toys make the fortresses have a planet wide cap I know they are powerful but they cost a lot to build so you will not be able to build many not sure if it would be to over powered or not. Also it would be nice to be able to build the fortresses per planet instead of galaxy wide as it would be nice to build them on other planets if you really needed more of them. I guess this would mainly be nice for fortresses and maybe not the force fields.

Edit: for the other trader toys it probably best to leave them as a galaxy wide cap.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 11:30:50 am by Fleet Unity »

Offline Cinth

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Re: Forts in times of distributed defenses
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2014, 11:26:30 am »
Neither a pro nor con, but: it would beg the question of why not make all defenses (forcefields included) per-planet.  If so, we should probably focus on the broader issue.

Considering how you did the turrets, I don't think it would be a bad idea.  If the conversion goes that way, the Fortress King approves :)
Hmm, are you thinking in terms of making e.g. Fort 1&2 and Forcefield I&II per-planet and half-number, with mark 3 per-galaxy? :)
More the way the caps were handled.  I'm ... well... let's say different ;).   I run two major chokepoints and the way turrets changed didn't have any impact on that.  If forts (a major portion of my defenses) have a similar change, I can get behind that.

But I think most folks here have come around to distributed-defense as more fun than chokepoint-defense, as long as both remain possible.
Huh? What?  :P

Quote
The main reason I can see in favor of making all defenses per-planet-cap is that it will be much more intuitive that way: basically if it's a mobile unit (can go through wormholes) it has a galaxy-wide cap, and if it can't it has a per-planet cap.  We may need to have some exceptions to that like trader toys (the first one of you to put ZPGs on every planet will be shot) but that could be noted specifically for them and the general rule would hold.
Trader toys should be kept the same. I would place everything everywhere relevant without thought.
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Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: Forts in times of distributed defenses
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2014, 11:26:53 am »
Well, I'm always and in all games in favour of distributed defenses and defense in depth being possible, letting economic balancing determine just how much players are allowed to shoot themselves in the foot by over-investing in defenses, so I certainly wouldn't argue against removing all per-galaxy limitations from any and all defenses, or using a middle-road such as what you set up for the turrets now, where every defense without marks is per-planet, and every defense with marks has mark 1-3 per-plant and mark 4 per-galaxy (which would require introducing mark 4 of a couple of existing defenses, and e.g. halving the current number of force fields, just as was done with turrets).
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Forts in times of distributed defenses
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2014, 11:37:16 am »
In the case of force fields, I really don't think that's a good idea. Choosing where to use those strategically matters, just giving them to me everywhere is only going to help my ability to make every world a choke point level defensive wall,and that's just insane. The goal shouldn't be to take the super choke I can build once that the Ai can't beat, and let me build it fifteen times instead.

Of all defenses are going per planet, a major rethink of how the defenses work and interact is in order. Mines, Gravity turrets,heavy beam cannons, zenith time manipulates... This goes to problematic places pretty quickly.
This is a very good point in general.  The question is whether that would be (or could be) counterbalanced via energy costs
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Forts in times of distributed defenses
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2014, 04:49:58 pm »
In sort of like the current setup, where the most powerful defenses are galactic caps, but the more normal "rank and file" turrets are per planet. It is a nice balance between the two "philosophies" in my mind. Besides, with the energy costs of the more powerful defenses, you probably wouldn't . be ae to afford much more than you can already get now.

Then again, I am part of the "old order", so part of it is that I have learned how to deal with and plan such things. ;)

Offline Tridus

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Re: Forts in times of distributed defenses
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2014, 05:02:59 pm »
This is a very good point in general.  The question is whether that would be (or could be) counterbalanced via energy costs

Probably, except in a case of a Fallen Spire galactic conquest type game, and those follow their own rules anyway. (Incidentally, Spire Cities are beastly now. The salvage from one with a black hole machine and Military III command station is paying for copious amounts of trader goodies.)

It won't be a case of just halve the caps and call it a day, though. Half the Needler Turrets is one thing, but giving me 5 FF's on every single planet is really going to diminish the value of the other ones, as I just won't need them very often. Fortresses are similar, but realistically given their energy cost you couldn't stack Fortresses on every world anyway. The Heavy Beam Cannon might need to be exempted, and the HBC IV almost certainly would need to be (or given an even higher energy cost, I'm not sure 20k is sufficient for a spammable version of that monster).

It's something I could see working if we go through each unit and think out what it should look like in distributed form.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Forts in times of distributed defenses
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2014, 05:31:24 pm »
Yea, I think we would need to still have a category of "galaxy-wide-cap" defenses, and just have them on a separate tab (for both building and research) so it's pretty clear what's what. 

HBCs do make sense as galaxy-wide, and perhaps having more "super turrets" of that nature if they can fit into the balance..  And yea, ultimately FFs would need to be galaxy-wide in general, or at least I think they work better that way.

Though I do wonder if having a K-unlockable forcefield with a per-planet-cap of 1 would be worthwhile simply as a quality-of-life improvement so you don't have to leave completely bare command stations out just to concentrate all FF strength.  Kind of like miniforts: it's not going to hold off much, but it can cut down on cheesily-small AI raids.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Forts in times of distributed defenses
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2014, 06:12:15 pm »
Yea, having planet capped "mini" versions of galactic capped defenses sounds like a reasonable compromise. It works great with forts, and having something like that forforcefields and some of the rest of the turrets sounds great. Would still preserve the distinction between "classes" of defenses, but help with "quality of life" in non balance destabilizing ways.

It would not make sense to have "mini-mines", as the point of mines is to have them be spread out. I think mines should keep galactic caps though, given how strong they can be, and their already very high cap.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 06:18:32 pm by TechSY730 »