Author Topic: Food For Thought  (Read 1077 times)

Offline Kron

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Food For Thought
« on: November 16, 2010, 09:28:53 am »
Quote from: MSN Conversation
(7:38:15 PM) Kron: heh
(7:38:36 PM) Kron: ever played AI War?
(7:38:44 PM) Vinay: Nope.
(7:39:04 PM) Kron: ah
(7:39:19 PM) Kron: have I told you about it?
(7:39:30 PM) Vinay: The revelation that the Kadeshi are also Hiigarans is what the SA forums would call a dick punch, though.
(7:39:32 PM) Vinay: You have!
(7:39:46 PM) Kron: alright!
(7:39:52 PM) Kron: so you know the basic gist
(7:40:01 PM) Vinay: Yerp.
(7:40:04 PM) Kron: fuckton of planets, huge galaxy, 8 hour games, massively co-op
(7:40:06 PM) Kron: right
(7:40:11 PM) Kron: so I'm looking at the game now
(7:40:16 PM) Vinay: (Also, I read that as 'grist' initially.)
(7:40:26 PM) Kron: and it's recently got it's 4.0 update (last time I was on 2.0)
(7:40:37 PM) Kron: and that means the base game has like 300 more ship types
(7:40:41 PM) Kron: and it now has THREE expansions
(7:41:14 PM) Kron: one expansion adds in all these ancient derelict spacecraft the size of small moons that you can repair and use as superweapons (and these Bentusi Trader types who roam the galaxy and you can trade tech with them)
(7:41:42 PM) Kron: one expansion adds these breeding biological aliens who infest the galaxy and occasionally hybridize with the AI for extra PAIN
(7:42:28 PM) Kron: final expansion is coming out next week, but it basically involves a SECOND military alien race that the AI fucked over, so they're invading your galaxy to kill the AI... and maybe you. You aren't sure. They have ships mid-way between the original expansion's behemoths (the Zenith) and your standard starships
(7:42:33 PM) Kron: aaaaaaaaaaand
(7:42:53 PM) Kron: all these expansions have around 300 thousand more ships and structures and neutral factions and whatever
(7:42:54 PM) Vinay: Whoo!
(7:42:56 PM) Kron: so
(7:43:01 PM) Kron: it's occurred to me
(7:43:07 PM) Kron: they are designing this game
(7:43:07 PM) Vinay: Sounds like a good time to get in thar.
(7:43:12 PM) Kron: in the EXACT opposite way I would
(7:43:17 PM) Vinay: ???
(7:43:36 PM) Kron: I build... competitive games, usually. I try and construct a strategy space
(7:43:55 PM) Kron: and I've drilled it into myself, that the best strategy games are the ones with high strategic complexity, but low RULE complexity
(7:44:11 PM) Kron: the fun should be emergent. Simple game pieces coming together for layered tactics.
(7:44:15 PM) Kron: Go is the best example of this.
(7:44:31 PM) Kron: but these guys (Arcen Games) are going about this the exact opposite way
(7:44:54 PM) Kron: they've populated their game with a BONANZA of little unique pieces
(7:45:26 PM) Kron: so many that players who've played the game for years STILL occasionally run into designs for ships they've never seen before (from old copies of the game to boot; each update adds like a hundred ships, and each update happens like each month)
(7:45:49 PM) Kron: they're basically turning their game into some weird RTS version of Magic: The Gathering
(7:45:54 PM) Kron: and y'know what? It works. Really well.
(7:46:05 PM) Kron: They're not crafting a strategy space, they're crafting a... STORY.
(7:46:07 PM) Vinay: As does Magic, it turns out.
(7:46:10 PM) Kron: Every battle
(7:46:15 PM) Kron: occurs with a new galaxy
(7:46:17 PM) Kron: a new hundred planets
(7:46:27 PM) Kron: each planet with its own unique spin of entities on it
(7:46:36 PM) Kron: maybe this one is a sapient Dyson Sphere that wants to be your friend
(7:46:49 PM) Kron: maybe that one has a pack of human pirates on it who're hostile to you AND the AI
(7:47:11 PM) Kron: maybe that other one is bordering a world with an AI Raid Engine that'll start slamming you with waves of ships if you take the planet over
(7:47:15 PM) Kron: etc. etc.
(7:47:28 PM) Kron: they're crafting these really unique experiences per game
(7:47:29 PM) Vinay: Fun!
(7:47:31 PM) Kron: yes!
(7:47:34 PM) Kron: I want in on this!
(7:47:38 PM) Kron: took a look at their random seeds
(7:47:42 PM) Vinay: You want to play AI War?
(7:47:44 PM) Vinay: Oh, I see.
(7:47:45 PM) Kron: there are around 6 billion possible iterations
(7:47:50 PM) Kron: meaning around 6 billion stories :P
(7:47:52 PM) Kron: fascinating
(7:47:57 PM) Kron: yes I want to play AI War ^_^
(7:48:07 PM) Kron: also, I've learnt something in general. Game design wise.
(7:48:14 PM) Vinay: ?
(7:48:37 PM) Kron: the whole "design a game with ten million entities as opposed to ten" thing :P
(7:48:39 PM) Kron: Mind you, they're shrewd to make this game single player / co-op
(7:48:53 PM) Kron: in competitive games, two many entities... spoil the balance. It makes the game too random.
(7:48:59 PM) Kron: But if everyone's working on the same side
(7:49:03 PM) Kron: then you don't MIND the randomness
(7:49:14 PM) Kron: maybe your occasional battle to keep your gnomish submarine afloat fails utterly
(7:49:18 PM) Kron: who cares? You were working together!
(7:50:48 PM) Kron: thoughts? :P
(7:51:00 PM) Vinay: Indeed. How much does this 'AI War' cost?

Hope that gives everyone some food for thought. As an added bonus to the devs, I've gotten you one more buyer. ;)
Time travel in the classic sense has no place in rational theory, but temporal distortion does exist on the quantum level, and more importantly it can be controlled.
- Academician Prokhor Zakharov, "For I Have Tasted the Fruit"

Offline x4000

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Re: Food For Thought
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2010, 10:49:34 am »
Very cool!  And, thanks for that, too. :)

I think you're right, that it's the exact opposite way from how most people would design a game -- especially a strategy game.  I really like Chess, too, and I think that when people start mucking around with Chess and adding a third dimension or odd rules or new pieces, etc, it really ruins it.  But that's one of those competition-style intensely skill-based games.  It's the same with Unreal Tournament, where I don't want 40 guns and a thousand levels, that would be way overwhelming.

It's funny that Magic: The Gathering was brought up, as I was a huge fan of that game when I was growing up.  I still have somewhere between three and five thousand cards sitting in a box in my son's closet, waiting for him to get old enough to play, too.  That's a game where I always felt like I was getting to explore, while also exercising skill and strategy.  Adapting to cards I'd never seen before was a big part of it for me.

I like the idea of games like Descent: Journeys In the Dark for much the same reason, as they provide all this sort of exploration that you don't get in a lot of games.  But eventually you run out of chits, with it being a board game.  With Hero Quest, which I also played a ton as a kid, there were even fewer pieces but there was a lot of rule-changing and "the warlock figure is actually not something friendly you have to rescue," etc.  It wasn't a game about tactical combat, although it had that -- it was a game about exploration and adventure and discovery.

For me, watching Star Trek or similar, that's what I always wanted to see, too.  It was always great in TNG to run into some new alien world or phenomena, too, rather than just yet one more dispute with the Klingons or what have you.  That sense of exploration and discovery was so cool, and when you'd run into other alien races you already knew -- like the Borg -- doing something in this hitherto-unknown part of the universe, that was doubly cool.

But, yeah -- with a lot of my favorite games growing up, I always had the sense that I would run into something new every time I played.  I love strategy games as well, but hate how they eventually become repetitive, so I decided to marry the two concepts together... and this is the result.  Glad it connects with others so strongly, as well! :)
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Food For Thought
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2010, 01:08:59 pm »
This was a very good read, and also a very good summarization by Chris.

Now that I think about it, as an avid Starcraft 2 player, I would absolutely hate to have "random" factors and elements in my game.  But Starcraft 2 is pretty much considered the pinnacle of competitive RTS, and so those kinds of "new" and "random" mechanics would probably be awful for the game.

However, when I think about what makes a CO-OPERATIVE game fun, well suddenly the formula becomes very different. 

Here are some factors I've noticed over the years when playing co-operative games:

1) Real-life gaming partners are usually not at the same skill level as you (or vice versa).
-Because of this, the most common type of co-operative game I like to play (competitive co-op), tends to end badly because it's either too easy for 1 party, or too hard for another.  Also, since your "understanding" of the game tends to be so different and varying skill-levels, it creates problems when trying to communicate how to improve for the other player, and/or makes them feel uncomfortable.

2) Pure co-operative games (no competitive aspect) usually get really boring, really fast.
-Sure, I like playing Left 4 Dead as much as the next guy, but running around killing zombies for hours only keeps its appeal for so long.  The same goes for World of Warcraft.  The only way that game seems deep, is when people have convinced themselves it is deep.  When you take a step back and realize that it's really an 80 level grinding fest with a pretty environment and a few other cool features, it tends to get pretty old, pretty fast.  Maybe I've just never been able to "disconnect" myself from reality to the extent I would need to "immerse" myself in the MMO gaming "world", but suffice it to say that I also find that type of "co-op" VERY boring; and to the people that don't well, I also find them very boring.

3) Competitive Co-op (playing cooperatively against other human opponents) is the most challenging type of co-op, but also the most rewarding as well.  However, there is no "safeguard" to prevent you from losing, and there are no "repeats".
-Another problem with competitive co-op (from my experience), is that defeat is always really disappointing.  Everybody tends to get really competitive, and typically when you lose, you know you lost because they were simply better players.  This can cause a lot of group frustration, especially when you have a "bad night" and it just keeps happening over and over.

These are my experiences after playing over 10 years of co-operative/competitive style games.

---

The thing that makes AI War so different is that it offers a really unique and re-playable cooperative experience, without NEEDING the competitive aspect.  This is literally the first time I've ever experienced that.  Where most cooperative games bore the shit out of you after the first few hours, or require other human opponents to keep things interesting, AI War seems to find a way to bring the best of both worlds, and do it in a way that is addictive and satisfying. 

The benefit to having an ever-changing and dynamic experience, without the need for human opponents, can not be understated.

1) You can save the game against the AI, and so if you "lose", start at an earlier point with minimal frustration (something you could never do against a real opponent GG NO RE).
2) If your AI opponent is too hard, you can crank them down a notch.  Alternatively, if they are too easy, you can crank them up a notch.  Needless to say, you don't really get to CHOOSE how hard your human opponent is.
3) With AI types, you can choose, to a certain extent, how your opponent plays.  You have very little, to any control over how a human opponent plays.  This can be especially frustrating when human players resort to game "exploits" or even blatant "hacks" to give them unfair advantages over the player.

---

So basically what I'm saying is that some people will be eternally satisfied with coop games that never challenge them, ask them to critically think, or ever change in a meaningful way.  Some people will be eternally satisfied with a cooperative experience against other people.  However, there is still a large group of people that fall in that middle area, and AI War is simply the perfect solution for those type of people.

Are there drawbacks to the formula?  Sure!  AI War is one of the most complicated games I've ever played in my life.  My dad, who used to play the more quick-paced RTS games with me when I was younger (think Total Annihilation, Dark Reign), and who eventually stopped because he said they were just too "fast-paced" for him, absolutely hated AI War.  I thought that it would be perfect for him, being a fairly intelligent guy, who appreciates strategy and depth (the kind of a person who, from my understanding, the game was created for), but hates the whole "micromanagement" aspect of modern RTSes.  But he didn't even finish the tutorials.  This game is not for everybody.

In addition, if you were to ever even try to make this game PVP it any way, it would fail miserably.  The concepts are too complex, the game mechanics actually TOO deep, that it would all be about who could "exploit" the other person first.

But every game design has its drawbacks.  What I appreciate about AI War, is that it does what it is meant to do, and it does it in a unique and robust fashion.  I have no qualms in saying that there is nothing else on the market today even remotely similar to it, and that's something to be proud of.
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Offline Kron

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Re: Food For Thought
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2010, 01:45:47 pm »
Heh, glad to see my occasional rants stirring up some discussion. ^_^

A long while ago on the Achron forums, I said that AI War was probably the most unique RTS I've ever seen (Achron included), and in retrospect it probably comes down to this.

Sure, it has all the trappings of a real-time strategy game, but it's fundamental focus is not about constructing a tightly balanced framework for you to duel other players with in a contest of mental skill... it's about crafting the experience of an epic sci-fi campaign.
Time travel in the classic sense has no place in rational theory, but temporal distortion does exist on the quantum level, and more importantly it can be controlled.
- Academician Prokhor Zakharov, "For I Have Tasted the Fruit"

Offline Vinraith

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Re: Food For Thought
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2010, 02:05:06 pm »
The mere fact that this game is entertaining for both Wingflier, who seems to see no value in single player and pure cooperative experiences, and myself, who sees little to no value in competitive games, is a real testament to the strength of the design. A game that combines a real challenge with a sense of genuine exploration and a bevy of difficult, meaningful choices has pretty broad appeal, and is far too rare a thing.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 02:07:09 pm by Vinraith »

Offline Kron

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Re: Food For Thought
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2010, 02:26:10 pm »
Vinraith? That name sounds familiar...

Aha! You were replying on the RPS comment threads for the AI War articles! <3
Time travel in the classic sense has no place in rational theory, but temporal distortion does exist on the quantum level, and more importantly it can be controlled.
- Academician Prokhor Zakharov, "For I Have Tasted the Fruit"