Fleet-ship/Turret/Starship balance from a bird's eye view

[keith.lamothe]

(edit: updated for 5.027, using the actual base numbers now; i.e. high caps, epic combat style; not updated for the Acid Sprayer changes yet since those were added after this was generated)

To consider some recent suggestions I pulled together some numbers from the game stats (primarily using the export button on the reference screen) and I figured y'all would be interested.  Some things already stick out at me, some things are misleading (zenith mirror health, etc), but I'm interested in feedback.

A few general rules I try to follow, speaking in terms of a full cap of a type.
1) Bonus fleet ship types should be roughly 30%-50% more useful than triangle fleet ship types.
2) Turret types should be roughly 2x-3x as useful as fleet ship types (I'm not clarifying whether triangle or bonus because honestly I don't know which it should be).
3) Starship types should be 1.5x as durable and have 2/3 the dps as fleet ship types, but be way more expensive m+c (so losing one hurts, but is easier to avoid).  This is not true in all cases, and may remain that way for some starships, but I'm thinking this is a good target.
4) If a type costs significantly more or less than average in M+C and/or E, it should be correspondingly slightly (say, 5-15%) more or less useful.
5) How high the "bonus" multiplier (whether an actual vs-hull-multiplier, or a special one like IRE's do-more-damage-to-higher-energy-stuff) for a type depends on how low their non-bonus dps is, and how hard and how rare it is to efficiently take advantage of the bonus.

I've attached the csv of the stats, and added them as a table below (some not-very-important columns left out for brevity).  This is all mkI stuff; higher marks are generally just linearly better).

ObjectType	Category	HullType	CapHealth	Armor	MovementSpeed	CapMetalCrystalCost	CapEnergyCost	AttackRange	ArmorPiercing	BaseShotPower	MinimumSpecialMultiplier	TargetsHitPerShot	ShotsPerSalvo	SecondsPerSalvo	ShipCap	BaseDPS	HighestBonus	BonusesSame?	BonusNames	MaximumSpecialMultiplier	MaxDPS
AcidSprayer	FleetShip	CloseCombat	15092000	450	50	58800	9800	2500	450	450	1	1	1	2	196	44100	6	TRUE	Neutron;Refractive;Composite;Polycrystal	1	264600
AntiArmorShip	FleetShip	Light	5488000	150	34	78400	9800	8000	10000	950	1	1	1	5	392	74480	2.4	TRUE	Heavy;UltraHeavy;Structural;Polycrystal	1	178744
ShieldBooster	FleetShip	Refractive	4921000	750	22	17290	4750	6000	0	1000	1	1	3	2	19	28500	6	TRUE	Light;UltraLight;Refractive;Composite;Polycrystal	1	171000
ArmorShip	FleetShip	UltraHeavy	30800000	750	30	52800	17600	3400	0	800	1	1	1	3	176	46933	4	TRUE	Light;Swarmer;UltraLight;Turret;Structural	1	187733
AutocannonMinipod	FleetShip	Swarmer	10701600	0	94	31360	4704	3500	0	140	1	1	1	1	392	54880	3.2	TRUE	Swarmer;Turret;UltraHeavy;Structural	1	175613
Bomber	FleetShip	Polycrystal	15092000	600	38	156800	9800	4000	0	2400	1	1	1	12	196	39200	6	TRUE	Heavy;Artillery;CommandGrade;UltraHeavy;Structural	1	235200
BulletproofFighter	FleetShip	Light	19712000	300	38	79200	4400	5200	750	1625	1	1	1	4	176	71500	5	FALSE	Medium;CloseCombat;Polycrystal	1	357500
DeflectorDrone	FleetShip	Swarmer	5213600	300	36	58800	4704	13000	0	1400	1	1	1	10	392	54880	2.4	TRUE	Artillery;Neutron;UltraLight;Refractive	1	131706
ZenithElectricBomber	FleetShip	Neutron	9975000	600	25	83600	4750	6400	0	38000	1	1	1	12	19	60166	3.2	TRUE	UltraHeavy;Structural;Polycrystal	1	192530
ElectricShuttle	FleetShip	Composite	10290000	150	22	88200	9800	7000	999999	400	1	200	1	20	49	196000	1	TRUE		1	196000
EtherJet	FleetShip	Refractive	4939200	0	60	35280	14700	4250	0	600	1	1	1	3	294	58800	4	TRUE	Light;Heavy;UltraHeavy;Polycrystal	1	235200
EyeBot	FleetShip	Refractive	4939200	0	34	19600	4900	4000	0	2000	1	1	1	3	98	65333	3.2	TRUE	Heavy;Turret;Structural	1	209063
Fighter	FleetShip	Light	15915200	150	38	39200	4900	3200	750	1200	1	1	1	4	196	58800	5	FALSE	Medium;CloseCombat;Polycrystal	1	294000
GrenadeLauncher	FleetShip	Artillery	20580000	300	38	98000	39200	7000	0	1000	1	9	1	15	196	117600	1	TRUE		1	117600
ImpulseReactionEmitter	FleetShip	Neutron	15092000	0	30	117600	9800	4200	0	150	5	1	1	2	196	73500	1	TRUE		30	441000
Infiltrator	FleetShip	Swarmer	11124400	150	36	32880	2740	3600	300	270	1	1	1	3	548	49320	4	TRUE	Heavy;UltraHeavy	1	197280
LazerGatling	FleetShip	Swarmer	10740800	150	34	54800	5480	6000	600	150	1	1	1	1	548	82200	1.8	TRUE	Light;Refractive;Polycrystal	1	147943
MissileShip	FleetShip	Artillery	15092000	150	22	117600	19600	10000	0	2400	1	1	1	10	196	47040	6	TRUE	Light;Neutron;Swarmer;UltraLight;Refractive;Composite	1	282240
MLRS	FleetShip	Medium	15288000	600	22	124800	15600	6000	0	800	1	1	8	12	156	83200	2	TRUE	Light;Neutron;Swarmer;UltraLight	1	166400
MunitionsBooster	FleetShip	Refractive	4921000	300	28	17290	1900	6000	0	1000	1	1	3	2	19	28500	6	TRUE	Artillery;Refractive;Composite	1	171000
YounglingCommando	FleetShip	Swarmer	10976000	150	150	9800	4900	3300	750	1200	1	1	1	3	196	78400	2	TRUE	Light;Swarmer;UltraLight;CloseCombat;UltraHeavy	1	156800
YounglingNanoswarm	FleetShip	CloseCombat	4664800	0	150	3920	980	-1000	999999	400	1	4	1	0	196	313600	1	TRUE		1	313600
YounglingTiger	FleetShip	Polycrystal	17836000	600	70	15680	4900	3300	0	2800	1	1	1	10	196	54880	2.4	TRUE	Medium;Heavy;Artillery;UltraHeavy;Structural	1	131706
YounglingVulture	FleetShip	Neutron	21128800	450	150	15680	4900	6000	999999	77	10	1	1	5	196	30183	1	TRUE		90	271655
YounglingWeasel	FleetShip	Composite	21128800	600	150	9800	4900	3300	0	2250	1	1	1	10	196	44100	4	TRUE	Neutron;Refractive;Composite;Polycrystal	1	176400
Parasite	FleetShip	UltraLight	9878400	450	34	59780	19600	6000	750	1000	1	1	1	8	98	12250	4	TRUE	Medium;Neutron	1	49000
Raider	FleetShip	UltraLight	10290000	150	46	62720	3920	7100	10000	250	1	1	1	2	392	49000	4	TRUE	Heavy;Artillery;Swarmer;UltraHeavy	1	196000
Raptor	FleetShip	Refractive	4939200	0	158	94080	9800	12000	500	1000	1	1	1	3	196	65333	1.8	TRUE	Light;UltraLight;Refractive	1	117587
SentinelFrigate	FleetShip	Medium	9975000	300	32	76000	9500	999999000	999999	14000	1	1	1	6	19	44333	1	TRUE		1	44333
ShieldBearer	FleetShip	Heavy	30870000	0	32	37240	7350	5000	0	3000	1	1	1	6	49	24500	2	TRUE	Medium;Swarmer;UltraLight;Composite	1	49000
Sniper	FleetShip	UltraLight	5118750	0	37	70200	4875	999999000	999999	7500	1	1	1	9	39	32500	6	FALSE	Light;Medium;CloseCombat;Polycrystal	1	195000
SpacePlane	FleetShip	UltraLight	5042100	0	54	61740	17150	5500	0	600	1	1	1	3	343	68600	2.4	TRUE	Light;Heavy;UltraHeavy;Polycrystal	1	164633
SpaceTank	FleetShip	Polycrystal	10015600	750	22	215404	9800	4000	750	2600	1	1	1	9	196	56622	3.2	TRUE	Heavy;Artillery;UltraHeavy;Structural;Polycrystal	1	181188
Spider	FleetShip	Light	9878400	150	36	23520	2940	10000	0	1000	1	1	1	5	196	39200	6	TRUE	Light;Swarmer;UltraLight;CloseCombat	1	235200
SpireArmorRotter	FleetShip	Medium	9947000	0	36	264600	12250	7000	999999	1200	1	1	1	2	98	58800	2	TRUE	Heavy;UltraHeavy	1	117600
SpireBladeSpawner	FleetShip	Medium	5250000	0	38	80000	2500	6000	0	1000	1	1	9	2	5	22500	1	TRUE		1	22500
SpireGravityDrain	FleetShip	Composite	10290000	0	24	294000	19600	2000	999999	8200	1	1	1	8	98	100450	1	TRUE		1	100450
SpireGravityRipper	FleetShip	Composite	20580000	0	26	294000	14700	2000	0	2000	1	1	1	2	98	98000	1	TRUE		1	98000
SpireMaw	FleetShip	UltraHeavy	10500000	0	28	130000	5000	4000	0	1400	1	1	9	2	5	31500	1	TRUE		1	31500
SpireMiniRam	FleetShip	Heavy	8190000	0	28	58500	1950	-1000	0	200000	1	1	1	0	39	7800000	3	FALSE	Structural	1	23400000
SpireStealthBattleship	FleetShip	UltraHeavy	9625000	0	28	110000	5000	7000	0	4000	1	1	9	2	5	90000	1.4	TRUE	Composite;Structural	1	125991
SpireTeleportingLeech	FleetShip	Medium	5625200	150	50	166600	9800	5500	750	550	1	1	1	1	98	53900	3.2	FALSE	Refractive;Composite	1	172477
SpireTractorPlatform	FleetShip	Heavy	10500000	0	28	80000	5000	4250	750	3500	1	1	21	6	5	61250	2	TRUE	Light;UltraLight	1	122500
MicroFighter	FleetShip	Light	14406000	150	38	73500	7350	4200	750	700	1	1	1	3	294	68600	5	FALSE	Medium;CloseCombat;Polycrystal	1	343000
TeleportBattleStation	FleetShip	Medium	4802000	450	20	49000	4900	4000	600	400	1	1	8	4	49	39200	2.4	TRUE	Light;Swarmer;UltraLight;Polycrystal	1	94076
TeleportRaider	FleetShip	UltraLight	5145000	0	20	39200	12250	7000	300	800	1	1	1	8	490	49000	4	TRUE	UltraLight;Refractive;Structural;Polycrystal	1	196000
VampireClaw	FleetShip	Refractive	4095000	0	54	25740	11700	-1000	10000	650	1	1	1	1	117	76050	3	TRUE	Medium;Neutron;Polycrystal	1	228150
VorticularCutlass	FleetShip	CloseCombat	28812000	750	64	23520	3920	-1000	10000	360	1	1	1	1	392	141120	4	FALSE	Light;Neutron;Composite	1	564480
ZenithAutoBomb	FleetShip	CloseCombat	15092000	0	92	9800	980	-1000	10000	4000	1	10	1	0	196	7840000	2	TRUE	Polycrystal	1	15680000
ZenithBeamFrigate	FleetShip	Composite	15092000	150	28	122500	4900	9600	0	3200	1	9	1	7	98	403200	1	TRUE		1	403200
ZenithBombardment	FleetShip	Artillery	9261000	150	22	215600	9800	33000	10000	45000	1	1	1	30	49	73500	2	TRUE	Heavy;UltraHeavy;Structural	1	147000
ZenithChameleon	FleetShip	CloseCombat	19894000	150	38	137200	4900	7000	0	4000	1	1	1	12	196	65333	2.4	TRUE	Heavy;Neutron;UltraHeavy;Structural	1	156793
ZenithMirror	FleetShip	Neutron	150920000	600	29	58800	9800	13000	0	500	1	1	1	3	196	32666	1	TRUE		1	32666
ZenithParalyzer	FleetShip	Medium	4939200	450	40	24500	9800	5000	0	625	1	1	1	8	196	15312	1	TRUE		1	15312
ZenithPolarizer	FleetShip	Neutron	15092000	450	36	78400	9800	3600	999999	48	4	1	1	2	196	18816	1	TRUE		100	470400
ZenithViralShredder	FleetShip	CloseCombat	15092000	450	26	98000	4900	-1000	10000	575	1	1	1	1	196	112700	1	TRUE		1	112700
BomberStarship	Starship	Polycrystal	18800000	600	55	352000	8000	2500	0	70000	1	1	1	2	4	140000	1	TRUE		1	140000
LeechStarship	Starship	Heavy	9600000	300	32	300000	15000	5500	0	30000	1	1	3	4	3	67500	1	TRUE		1	67500
LightStarship	Starship	Heavy	15000000	1000	32	256000	16000	6200	4000	8000	1	1	5	4	4	40000	4	TRUE	Medium;CloseCombat;Polycrystal	1	160000
Dreadnought	Starship	Artillery	25000000	300	18	440000	10000	10000	0	200000	1	15	1	8	5	1875000	1	TRUE		1	1875000
RaidStarship	Starship	UltraLight	6000000	90000	148	246000	15000	5500	999999	51200	1	1	1	3	3	51200	4	FALSE	UltraHeavy;Structural	1	204800
RiotControlStarshipI	Starship	Heavy	7200000	500	30	320000	12000	6000	0	4000	1	1	5	4	4	20000	4	TRUE	Light;Medium;Swarmer;UltraLight;CloseCombat	1	80000
FlakTurret	Turret	Turret	24500000	750	0	235200	19600	4500	0	6000	1	5	1	7	98	420000	2.4	FALSE	Swarmer;CloseCombat;Refractive;Composite	1	1007958
HeavyBeamTurret	Turret	Turret	10200000	800	0	210000	19800	14000	8000	140000	1	1	1	7	12	240000	1	TRUE		1	240000
LazerTurret	Turret	Turret	29400000	300	0	215600	29400	12000	750	1500	1	1	3	4	196	220500	2.4	FALSE	Heavy;Refractive;UltraHeavy;Polycrystal	1	529178
LightningTurret	Turret	Turret	19600000	800	0	196000	39200	8000	999999	400	1	200	1	18	98	435555	8	FALSE	Artillery;Neutron;Refractive	1	3484444
MLRSTurret	Turret	Turret	19600000	450	0	215600	19600	15000	0	700	1	1	12	8	196	205800	2.4	FALSE	Light;Neutron;Swarmer;UltraLight;CloseCombat	1	493899
MissileTurret	Turret	Turret	9800000	150	0	215600	19600	30000	90000	5400	1	1	3	12	196	264600	2.4	FALSE	Medium;Neutron;UltraLight;Composite;Polycrystal	1	635014
SniperTurret	Turret	Turret	23500000	1000	0	423000	35250	999999000	999999	3600	1	1	1	6	235	141000	6	FALSE	Medium;UltraLight;CloseCombat;Polycrystal	1	846000
Turret	Turret	Turret	14700000	300	0	196000	19600	10500	150	4000	1	1	3	10	196	235200	2.4	FALSE	Heavy;Artillery;UltraHeavy;Structural	1	564457

[Hearteater]

I'll look over this tonight.  I've got a family dinner and tomorrow I get to introduce a new player to AI Wars, exclusively due to your new Helper Role!  So in case you are wondering, thank you for putting that in.  I'm extremely excited to try and hook another one of my friends.  Also, sorry to keep dragging you and Keith off AVWW.  That's what you get for having an awesome game.

[keith.lamothe]

Glad the helper thing's been a... ahem, help.  Pun wasn't intended, really!

[Ricca]

Before I get started with the list, I'd like to ask something. Impulse Emitters, are their shots intended to be affected by armour? And if so, any chance of a minor, say, 100*mark armour piercing?

[keith.lamothe]

Before I get started with the list, I'd like to ask something. Impulse Emitters, are their shots intended to be affected by armour? And if so, any chance of a minor, say, 100*mark armour piercing?

Hmm... I probably would have given them max armor piercing while I was rebalancing them if I'd thought of it.  But currently I don't know if that's a good idea; they're already really good at damaging certain important targets, and those are usually really high-armor.  Giving them max armor piercing would basically multiply their dps in such situations by 5.  I guess the question is this: how good are they right now compared to polarizers?

As for a more normal armor piercing, sure, I could do that.  Not sure if it fits.

[Hearteater]

Been crunching the numbers and just a few questions:

1) IRE, do I just add the Energy cost of the target to its damage, or is there a multiplier as well?  Or some other system?
2) Polarizers, do I just add the Armor value of the target to its damage, or is there a multiplier as well?  Or some other system?
3) Do armor rotting attacks subtract the armor before they apply damage or after?

[Ricca]

Before I get started with the list, I'd like to ask something. Impulse Emitters, are their shots intended to be affected by armour? And if so, any chance of a minor, say, 100*mark armour piercing?

Hmm... I probably would have given them max armor piercing while I was rebalancing them if I'd thought of it.  But currently I don't know if that's a good idea; they're already really good at damaging certain important targets, and those are usually really high-armor.  Giving them max armor piercing would basically multiply their dps in such situations by 5.  I guess the question is this: how good are they right now compared to polarizers?

As for a more normal armor piercing, sure, I could do that.  Not sure if it fits.

I will admit that I haven't really tried polarizers, kinda got put off when I used some of them to defend my home command station against a old Mark 3 Raid Starship.

Anyway, I have no problems with impulse emitter's damage against larger targets, but against fleet ships, they seem a bit lacking, and maybe a slight amount of armour piercing would help them out against them.

[TechSY730]

Yea, I think giving "conditional damage" ships (impulse emitters, vultures, etc.) some small measure of armor piercing would be good, as that would help keep them from being total dead-weight when not in their "optimal zone".

Also, it may be worth double checking every "conditional damage" ship's minimum damage.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, I think giving "conditional damage" ships (impulse emitters, vultures, etc.) some small measure of armor piercing would be good, as that would help keep them from being total dead-weight when not in their "optimal zone".

There the answer is just to shoot at something that doesn't have (much) armor, but yea, a little armor piercing wouldn't hurt.

Also, it may be worth double checking every "conditional damage" ship's minimum damage.

They (polarizer, IRE, vulture, I think that's all the does-damage-based-on-something-weird types) each have a minimum mulitiplier to keep their dps from going too low.  And a maximum to keep it from going too high.

[Wanderer]

Yea, I think giving "conditional damage" ships (impulse emitters, vultures, etc.) some small measure of armor piercing would be good, as that would help keep them from being total dead-weight when not in their "optimal zone".

There the answer is just to shoot at something that doesn't have (much) armor, but yea, a little armor piercing wouldn't hurt.

Also, it may be worth double checking every "conditional damage" ship's minimum damage.

They (polarizer, IRE, vulture, I think that's all the does-damage-based-on-something-weird types) each have a minimum mulitiplier to keep their dps from going too low.  And a maximum to keep it from going too high.

Boooooo, I wanna see a vulture one-shot an H/K when it's at 10% life!

[TechSY730]

Yea, I think giving "conditional damage" ships (impulse emitters, vultures, etc.) some small measure of armor piercing would be good, as that would help keep them from being total dead-weight when not in their "optimal zone".

There the answer is just to shoot at something that doesn't have (much) armor, but yea, a little armor piercing wouldn't hurt.

When I say a little, I mean a little. Like laser gattling or standard fighting, or even less armor piercing.

Also, it may be worth double checking every "conditional damage" ship's minimum damage.

They (polarizer, IRE, vulture, I think that's all the does-damage-based-on-something-weird types) each have a minimum mulitiplier to keep their dps from going too low.  And a maximum to keep it from going too high.

I know that they have a minimum damage already in effect for them. Its those floors that may need double checking.

Of course, although its fair to have those types of ships are worse than the other ships in the general case, as they are meant for a specific case, something that needs to be figured out is how much worse in the general case? 50% DPS in the average case compared to the average DPS of the average fleet ship in the average case? 10%? 70%. I don't know.
And finding those "averages" is not an easy problem, especially when special damage formulas come into play.

[keith.lamothe]

Boooooo, I wanna see a vulture one-shot an H/K when it's at 10% life!

Haha.  Vulture multiplier is actually based on percent of lost health, not quantity.  But a full cap of all marks of Vulture, Polarizer, and IRE should actually put some serious hurt on a H/K.  Bonus points for implosion artillery.

[chemical_art]

bumping,

this should really be stickied. It is so useful for those of us to lazy to acquire it by other means.

[keith.lamothe]

Not sure if it should be stickied on the main AIW forum, but maybe.  Only after I actually update it for the latest version, speaking of laziness

[keith.lamothe]

Ok, I've updated the OP (both file and table) with 5.027's numbers (that isn't out yet, but it's done).  The columns are a bit different, but hopefully more useful.