Author Topic: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion  (Read 12318 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2010, 12:44:29 am »
Did you read anything I just said?
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2010, 12:56:31 am »
No, i just kinda ignored it, why?

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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2010, 03:00:30 am »
No, i just kinda ignored it, why?


* kingisaaclinksr facepalm.  
If you want to win an argument, you can't ignore what the other person is saying, you have to counter what he is saying with reasoned thinking.  Btw, "On-paper" is great and all, but you need a bit more than that to win an argument about balance.  Like, hard data.  It would be like me saying that the Spire Ship looks great on paper, but I haven't used one since 3.7XXX.  (lack of playing time).  Thus my argument would be null.  

I am not strictly involved in this discussion I might add, as I do not have enough knowledge about balance to say if Fleet VS Starships are balanced correctly.  Just thought I'd interject.  

*Edit* ooo, I didn't know that created red text.  I'll remove it if that's too annoying.  :P

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« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 03:02:38 am by kingisaaclinksr »
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2010, 03:06:14 am »
Oh, i just figured it was the thing to do. Everyone else seems to be doing it fairly well in this thread after all.
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2010, 03:19:12 am »
Oh, i just figured it was the thing to do. Everyone else seems to be doing it fairly well in this thread after all.
* kingisaaclinksr inserts Mother/Father reference here: "If everyone jumped off the cliff, would you?" 

Oh sorry, forgive me, I just had to put that in ;)

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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2010, 03:28:08 am »
Yet. Everyone else is still doing it  ;)

(i see you learned how to properly use red text this time :p )
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TheMachineIsSentient

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2010, 08:34:00 am »
FACT, as per the spreadsheet posted on page on


Bombers mk1 cost ~150k metal to make CAP. Bomber starships, while more effective, cost 240k metal.

Bomber mk2 cost ~300k metal to make CAP, and MORE EFFECTIVE than bomber starships, which at this point cost 480k metal.

Ah, but you didn't say cheaper cost. You said, cost-effectiveness, which are two very different things entirely. Cost-effectiveness takes into account the total HP as well as other factors like modified DPS and a 100 page paper I could write about AI war battles. I don't think I need to write it, you play quite a bit as do I, and we both know that starships > Fleet ships.

As Chris stated, Fleet ships are churn and burn, unlike starships, which have much higher survivability and investment. The efficiency argument clearly goes for the  bomber starship. Let's also note that by your own omission, many times, you have stated without qualification that you go starships. I have also played with you a few times now, still waiting to see some fleet ships. After nearly every large battle, I'm having to reproduce half of my fleet or more, and you are calmly running around after losing maybe a starship or two. I don't believe you want to make the game harder for yourself, but that you choose starships because they are clearly superior on nearly all levels right now. Is really strange reading your argument as I have never seen you use them.

Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2010, 09:03:46 am »
What settings do you guys play one? Becuase generally I find my fleet ships a lot more useful then starships  ???

I am not sure making starships too expencive is that good, at least not without buffing the economy somewhat. I seldom if ever have time to build the really expencive stuff, and thats when I use Econ station II as an almost default. With the steep turret costs and continues making of fleet ships and rebuilding of defences the starships take along time to build :).
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Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2010, 09:54:20 am »
I imagine cost changes won't make a lot of difference to the Starship Spammer playstyle, it will just slow down their start...that playstyle is about not losing anything ever.  Ship cap and knowledge cost are what matters to it. Zenith Starships and Spire Starships are essentially immune to Mk I and Mk II planets, they can clean them up at will.  (So are Mk IV and V Bombers, but those are a hell of a lot harder to rush for obvious reasons.) It doesnt matter that their firepower is fairly limited when the enemy cant even hurt them...see also, ye olde armor ships. :^)

The classic means of making single strong targets poop their pants is crowd control.  In an AI war context, this might mean letting Ion Cannons cripple starship engines.

It also gives me a thought for a Grappler Guardian that latches on to a single starship target and takes it out of the fight.

Quote
And raw damage is somewhat irrelevant, too, when looking at siege starships and bomber starships.  Siege starships can project an ENORMOUS amount of firepower across a huge distance, and so if it takes a little longer that's okay.  Plus if they get damaged you can retreat them, versus having to rebuild parts of your fleet at higher cost. 
In my experience your siege starships are either doing well or they have exploded, they dont tend to get damaged ever. There's a lot of pretty fast enemies with anti-Artillery bonus.  120,000 crystal for a such an epicly glass cannon is extraordinarily brutal. 

And I play on Epic. God forbid a bomber comes vaguely close to your siege starships on Normal.

Offline superking

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2010, 10:20:21 am »
I think the cost increases are a good start.

people seem to be forgetting that compared to 3.0, the 4.0 starting player eco is INSANE- +650/+650 or thereabouts from the onset. starship spamming was never such an issue before not because of the long build times- lots of engineers remedied that- but because of the weak player ecnomies meaning that even at the same prices, they were so much harder to afford

now they are relatively cheap compared to player income and losing them is really no worries. When I lose a flagship its not the same NOOooooOOOOOOOO I would cry from 3.0, where the flagship was 10 minutes of my entire economy- now it pops out in 3.

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2010, 10:54:03 am »
Let's not forget that starships are horribly cheap in terms of energy compared to fleet ships.

Offline x4000

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2010, 11:09:09 am »
Emotions are running high here, so let me just point out a few things:

I think it's pretty clear that everyone is partially right.  Why?  Because there are SO many different settings and ways to play, and so many map seeds and opposing ship makeups, that the circumstances that lead to people feeling one way or another are just so varied.

Lance, I don't think anyone was ignoring your point about cost-effectiveness.  And it is a good point, in a lot of respects.  But the problem is, in practice, if I build 1 starship (at massive cost) and then keep doing smallish raids with it and repairing it in between, it's long-term effectiveness is going to be so much higher than the equivalent cost of fleet ships.  The repair costs are so cheap, and starships have enough armor that they tend to take less damage (depending on the starship), and starships don't tend to get hard-countered or killed by ion cannons or one-shotted or any of that stuff. 

I think that when people see this, a lot of them instinctively discount a lot of the on-paper cost effectiveness -- and the economy is robust enough that they can do so.  Whether fleet ships are REALLY more cost effective is somewhat beside the point, the perception that players come to is just as important.  Because if players get the feeling that starships are a better value through experimentation on gameplay, that's what most will act on.  Most don't read the forums.  So then you wind up with a ton of people using starships but not fleet ships simply because that's what "seems right," and then they miss out on half the game.  That's a problem no matter what the raw numbers say, what reality actually is, right?  It's about player habits moreso than math, as most people won't take the time to do the explicit math -- they go on their impressions from play.

The reason I don't want to just buff all the fleet ships is that that's kind of pointless -- I might as well just nerf all the starships.  I do intend to make the higher-mark fleet ships scaled better so that they are more attractive, there's no question on that, but if the fleet ships are all buffed then that's equivalent to nerfing not only starships but guardians and every other heavy structure (and turrets, and so on).  I don't think things are so disjointed as all that.

The main issue I saw was that the perception was that starships were way too valuable, and players were acting on that.  So by making their costs significantly higher, that's hopefully enough to give players pause.  They need to be using starships and fleet ships anyway, and if they cap out on fleet ships then they'll still have resources to spare with the new economy and the starships.  I'm actually quite happy if people choose to unlock higher-mark fleet ships and only a few higher-mark starships at all.  The costs (knowledge and otherwise) are meant to encourage that, so that starships remain centerpieces rather than forming starship fleets.

This is why I made the change I did to doubling the starship costs.  Not because I was disbelieving about their cost-to-benefit ratio, but because I'm focused on player behavior and perception rather than the raw numbers.
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Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2010, 12:57:19 pm »
Having encountered them for the first time, i'd like to mention that while the Zombie and Self-Destruct guardians are fun, they're both massively biased against fleet ships instead of starships. 


Offline orzelek

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2010, 01:01:17 pm »
I met only zombie ones but odds were heavily against them... since small spire fleet is quite powerful obstacle. I didn't experience the self-destruct one yet.
But I met EMP one - and when it warped in the surprise and oh shit factor went quite high :D

Offline x4000

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2010, 03:10:34 pm »
Yeah, it's true that Zombie and Self-Destruct by nature are more anti-fleet ships.  I'll have to make some more anti-big-stuff guardians if there is time.  If folks have ideas on those, feel free to submit them in mantis, or I'll cook up something. :)
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