Author Topic: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion  (Read 12308 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2010, 06:44:33 pm »
He's a wily one.
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Offline orzelek

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2010, 06:44:40 pm »
Actually when you added guardians you kind of forced us to use starships - especially bomber and siege one. Without them attacking guardians with fleet ships only is a suicide... your losses will be very large - and with MRS nerf you are planning you will emphasize this further.
Anything that reduces survivability drastically (MRS nerf will do that - same as guardians that were meant to massively murder fleet ships) will make starships more valuable - mainly because they are actually capable of doing something and not dying instantly when around their counters (most of the time at least - if something counters them they still die quickly - see pairs like bomber starship + laser guardian).

Increasing cost of starshpis by 2x will make preparing for battle longer (waiting for them to build since they are a necessity) and potentially increase the micro (to not lose them).

Bah you ninja ruined my post before I finished it....

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2010, 06:50:32 pm »
Actually when you added guardians you kind of forced us to use starships - especially bomber and siege one. Without them attacking guardians with fleet ships only is a suicide...
Ok, please pardon me while I indulge in a mild bit of developer-rage.

I've done at least 4 distinct sets of guardian nerfs to address this very thing!! And still people talk like nothing has changed!  And like we're not going to change it!

Thank you, I feel better now :)


That said, to some extent the guardians are supposed to make fleet-ship-only attacks less-feasible for the lower-level planets and outright crazy for higher stuff.  They're supposed to add a requirement for some starship usage.

But they certainly were worse than was healthy for a while.  The flak guardians were hitting several hundred targets per second for a bit there ;)
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Offline orzelek

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2010, 07:00:16 pm »
Thanks to you they at least don't murder bomber starships and fleet ones now - after modifications they counter them less harshly :D

(time to pat dev on the back to reduce the rage)

Changes pending for next build will make them a bit more aoe focused for few types which will help fleet ships and probably make starships hurt a bit more.

Question a bit off topic: do that check boxes for alternative targeting from controls section affect all ships?
That would means that in a way using focus fire one makes both AI and you lose more ships.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2010, 07:05:07 pm »
paying 500k for a single spire starship... uh...



I suppose paying twice as much in knowledge isnt enough cost as it is?

Did you miss the part where bombers outdamaged both siege and bombstar past mk1? The part where the only really effective counter to fleet ships is other fleet ships? (fleet starships do pathetic dps comparatively) the entire bonus ship bit? the part where bomber mk1 cost significantly less metal than the equivalent bombers or sieges(in crystal), and thus their time to build is also less?

« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 07:10:59 pm by Lancefighter »
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Offline orzelek

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2010, 07:14:09 pm »
Hmm...

Maybe after stick a bit of consolation prize: reduce starship knowledge costs a bit - they are much more costly than fleet ships in this regard.
Also as Lance noted - fleet ships advance quite considerably with added marks. Difference between spire and zenith starship is in usage (not sure about boost to damage), siege and bomber don't get that much more dps per mark - bombardment ones at least are significantly tougher.

Sieges and bombardment 12k.. fleet ones 14k for line up - you can get two types of fleet ships to Mk IV for that price. Increased price along with double build time will make us pay for them..

Offline Malibu Stacey

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2010, 07:15:29 pm »
Did you miss the part where bombers outdamaged both siege and bombstar past mk1? The part where the only really effective counter to fleet ships is other fleet ships? (fleet starships do pathetic dps comparatively) the entire bonus ship bit? the part where bomber mk1 cost significantly less metal than the equivalent bombers or sieges(in crystal), and thus their time to build is also less?

Well... Without getting too mired in the emotions here, let me just say:

1. The balance is definitely not final, but it also won't be a focus until next week as much, and then it's practically the sole focus. See the November dev schedule sticky for why. That said, we're trying to hit he most egregious cases as they come up. I don't think there's anything super egregious here, based on the spread of comments.

<snip>

3. The dps of the fleet ships probably needs some work for the higher mark levels. This is not a new issue, but recent changes to the game, especially the cost structure for the higher-level fleet ships meanthat I rally need to redo the progression of the lower-level fleet ships to their hiher-level counterparts. The root of this issue goes back to 1.0 or before, and it's somethig I intent to tackle early next week so that there is then still time to balance it.

<snip>

5. In short, I'm generally feeling like the balance of mark I fleet ships is generally good (not perfect, but not horribly off either), but by the time you get to mark iv the roi for those ships is presently not great.

Offline x4000

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2010, 07:19:03 pm »
paying 500k for a single spire starship... uh...

Well, that's if that's how the cost schedule goes, then yes.  I've been feeling like the spire starships are a bit underwhelming for a while, anyway -- they're supposed to be significantly more awesome than the Zenith one, so worth the cost.  In that sort of circumstance, this is actually a matter of the starships at the upper end perhaps being less valuable than they should be.  Hard to say, but we'll see what people think when they see it in practice.

I suppose paying twice as much in knowledge isnt enough cost as it is?

No, not at all.  Because if the metal/crystal costs are off, then having to pay twice as much knowledge is still a no-brainer.  You just get the cheaper ship and spam it.

Did you miss the part where bombers outdamaged both siege and bombstar past mk1? The part where the only really effective counter to fleet ships is other fleet ships? (fleet starships do pathetic dps comparatively) the entire bonus ship bit?

You're looking at this stuff in isolation, which is largely irrelevant.  Fleet starships aren't for direct combat, though they have some direct combat skills.  The reason you want those in every strike group is because they buff your other ships.

And raw damage is somewhat irrelevant, too, when looking at siege starships and bomber starships.  Siege starships can project an ENORMOUS amount of firepower across a huge distance, and so if it takes a little longer that's okay.  Plus if they get damaged you can retreat them, versus having to rebuild parts of your fleet at higher cost.  

There should be incentive to retreat your starships rather than rebuild, and when you do that their ongoing costs is actually lower than the cost of maintaning a fleet that gets constantly replaced, I'd wager.

As for the bomber starships, those have enough health and enough quick-dps that they can go places that bomber fleet ships can't get.  Two different roles, in my opinion.  Though perhaps if the bomber starship isn't surviving enough, it might need a tad more health, not sure on that.

Fleet ships are meant to be churn-and-burn.  Starships are meant to be investments that you protect and retreat, etc.  This isn't meant to be an either-or choice, players are meant to need some mix of both in the same sense that you generally wouldn't go turret-less.

Am I sure that 2x costs on starships is the way to go?  No.  But I think it's in the right direction, as I agree with you Lancefighter that the starships weren't unbalance in combat.  But I agree with some of the others that starships were unbalanced in terms of ROI.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2010, 07:28:45 pm »
I would certainly say that perhaps fleet starships need to be better (and, well, the spire is *worse* than the zenith, if you ignore bonus differences)

And the ONLY limited resource in the game is knowledge. You can get significantly better cost effectiveness by unlocking higher bombers than going better bombstars or sieges, in terms of both cost in resources, spammability, and like i said, importantly, KNOWLEDGE costs.
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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2010, 08:07:33 pm »
I've been trying to just listen and not say anything for at least a day or two.. Going to keep going with that, but I have to say, working all day and then reading all of these bombshells is quite shocking.

My analysis was meant to draw attention to how inadequate fleet ships perform in battle (in 4.033, I realize you are tweaking guardians Keith :-) ), not point at starships and demand a nerf. However, I think you will see a side effect where starships require so many resources that players may begin to use fleet ships because they don't want to wait or just out of fear of losing their starships in a battle. It certainly makes starships feel more like an investment instead of just a super-powered ship. This may work out after all; I will be sure to report back on that. 
 
There are some encouragements to alt + tab and wait for your resources to build a little bit, and I hope that just drawing out the time it takes to build a starship fleet is not going to encourage that behavior.

I have a few fleet ship buffs in mind for the higher mark ships. I will share them Wednesday after further discussion, just to let things mature in this thread. The biggest benefit of this thread is to generate discussion and hear people's ideas.


Offline x4000

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2010, 08:36:51 pm »
I haven't even started on the buffs to the higher-mark ships for the fleet ships, but that's something that I'll tackle next week.  Right now it often gives something like a 20% attack boost or similar, whereas the starships and turrets tend to get more like 2x bonuses between levels or more.  So that makes things a bit skewed, and my goal is to make them more consistent.

My goal isn't to make people spend a lot of time waiting around on resources, but if players want the really high-level starships they ought to have a really robust economy to do that, above and beyond what they can do with fleet ships alone.  Fleet ships are still the bread and butter of the game, and the starships are meant to be more centerpieces.  Building starships to cap and just roaming around with them is definitely NOT the intent.

Anyway, lots of testing and feedback is needed, and I'm not so stuck on the 2x cost for starships change that I won't change that.  But I would like people to give it a fair shake and some good consideration.

Having starships and fleet ships be too close in cost is really damaging to the relative utility of the fleet ships, no matter what way you cut it.  If this guts player economies too much, I'd almost rather buff the player economies rather than reduce the starship costs, because the relationship between the costs of starships versus the cost of fleet ships just didn't feel right previously.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2010, 09:11:59 pm »
Like I've said, I feel that if fleet ships in general were rebalanced, people would think more of them. Again, fleet ships are already CONSIDERABLY more cost effective to do the same job.
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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2010, 11:33:19 pm »
Like I've said, I feel that if fleet ships in general were rebalanced, people would think more of them. Again, fleet ships are already CONSIDERABLY more cost effective to do the same job.

I don't think this is true at all. Can you cite the numbers you are viewing? Specifically.

And is true, undeniably so, people are churning out starship fleets very quickly and do not even need fleet ships to win the game. If they are supposed to be an investment, something that is harder to get, centerpieces, lieutenants, pick your word... They are not that right now. They can be spammed, and if that's not intended... Then the nerf bat must wail.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2010, 12:16:10 am »
Like I've said, I feel that if fleet ships in general were rebalanced, people would think more of them. Again, fleet ships are already CONSIDERABLY more cost effective to do the same job.
As machine said, I think your "facts" are a little bit obscured/incorrect.  You can't just look at things on paper, and completely eliminate every other factor involved in the equation to determine "cost effectiveness".

Sure, fleet ships may be, in terms of knowledge, metal, crystal, and energy, vastly superior in terms of effectiveness per "point" of "resources"; but that's not the only factor here is it?

Fleet Ships are VERY specialized.  They do 1 thing, and do it well.  Their lives are typically short, and there are many counters to them that you have to watch out for, not the least being overcommiting and losing a massive number of them, as well as AI Eyes, most Guardians, Parasites, Fortresses, Ion Cannons, and a ton of other things that can potentially happen.

Starships (from my experience) have a much broader "role" definition.  This isn't necessarily because of their bonus damages, but because they are much more durable, easier to micro effectively (without losing a ton of them), and can do things that Fleet Ships simply can't (like kill things from a massive range).  In addition, they don't trip AI Eyes, most Guardians do negligible damage to them, and you can normally leave and repair them without ever having to reinforce them simply by staying near a friendly wormhole.  If players had a choice (and at this point they do), most of them are going to choose Starships 100% of the time.  Cost effectiveness is more complicated than just crunching numbers on a calculator, and I think you're completely missing the reason why Starships are considered so powerful in their current state.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Fleet Ship vs Starship general balance discussion
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2010, 12:21:36 am »
FACT, as per the spreadsheet posted on page on


Bombers mk1 cost ~150k metal to make CAP. Bomber starships, while more effective, cost 240k metal.

Bomber mk2 cost ~300k metal to make CAP, and MORE EFFECTIVE than bomber starships, which at this point cost 480k metal.
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