Author Topic: Flak turrets feel weak  (Read 10242 times)

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Flak turrets feel weak
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2012, 04:48:01 pm »
Pretty much.  The only thing that can reach the MLRS out of the tractor ball early is the Missile Frigs and their ilk.  Everything has flaks in range.  Squish.
Fair enough.

Ok, here's the thing: I want there to be some short range turrets.  What would have to happen to the flak for it to be competitive with other turret types at their current range?  And it doesn't have to be exactly the same, I'd be willing to add 500, maybe 1000, to ease placement, but more than that is getting out of the territory I'm aiming at.

They need to not die on contact with the enemy, that's the primary problem.  Here's the standard situ:

Average wave of say 400-500 ships coming in for later game (when you start looking at needing AoE turrets).  You're tractored and FF'd, and not pulling my tazer-lock routine.  Got some gravs up as well.  You've got yourself some flaks and lightnings, and then everyone outside at range on your whipping boy.

They hit.  Everyone gets off the alpha salvo (kinda, with lightning, now...).  Around 350 ships are left, and every lightning and flak turret you own are dead.  They seem like a waste of money.

I'd personally be happy if you quartered their damage and quadrupled their hitpoints/armor.  At least then they'd last long enough to do something outside of tazerlock.  Right now they're one hit wonders.

Reducing the impact of FFs on their shots would also help them.  At 10% they go useless.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 04:50:00 pm by GUDare »
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Flak turrets feel weak
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2012, 04:57:20 pm »

I'd personally be happy if you quartered their damage and quadrupled their hitpoints/armor.  At least then they'd last long enough to do something outside of tazerlock.  Right now they're one hit wonders.


A factor of 4 seems a bit much, but something like this would be nice. Also, could increasing their range (at least for flaks) be added to the list of stuff to be buffed?

Reducing the impact of FFs on their shots would also help them.  At 10% they go useless.

1. I thought the damage scaling for being under a "hard" forcefield was .25, not .1. Am I wrong?
2. Do you think its time to make that penalty less severe for all units, or only certain units?

Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: Flak turrets feel weak
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2012, 05:10:56 pm »
Rather than increasing the range, how about AOE damage on-death? That would give us more reason to build them close enough to the wormhole to have adequate fire coverage, plus getting a warm fuzzy feeling in place of the rage when they die and take out a few more ships with them.  Wouldnt have to be an outrageous amount of damage - just enough to be felt and contribute to the cause of destroying large amounts of smaller ships.

I quite like this idea; booby-trapped turrets would be cool.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Flak turrets feel weak
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2012, 05:10:59 pm »

I'd personally be happy if you quartered their damage and quadrupled their hitpoints/armor.  At least then they'd last long enough to do something outside of tazerlock.  Right now they're one hit wonders.


A factor of 4 seems a bit much, but something like this would be nice. Also, could increasing their range (at least for flaks) be added to the list of stuff to be buffed?
If they got a range boost it only needs to be 500 or so.  I just want them to be able to barely cover the FF.  I don't think it needs to get crazy.  Lightning Range is pretty good as a baseline.

Quote
Reducing the impact of FFs on their shots would also help them.  At 10% they go useless.

1. I thought the damage scaling for being under a "hard" forcefield was .25, not .1. Am I wrong?
2. Do you think its time to make that penalty less severe for all units, or only certain units?
Might be .25.  I don't stick anything under FF's anymore so I'm probably off.  I definately think FF reduction should be variable to the turret, but I'm not sure of the complexity of implementation and if it would really add a lot of value, or just more statistical confusion.

I'm not sure how to fix the flak gun, personally.  I've been trying to figure out what to suggest for lightning's since I first used them, thinking they'd be awesome, and finding out they couldn't survive a single salvo.  Flaks fall under the same basic category. 

Making them cheap might be the solution, at least then the one-hit wonder nature of them, or enforced FF reduction, wouldn't feel so painful.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Flak turrets feel weak
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2012, 05:52:39 pm »
I could just make flaks (and potentially lightnings) totally exempt from the 75% damage reduction from being under an ff.

That would make it rather optimal to put them there, and I don't like making anything all that obvious... but would it be so bad to have a few more turrets (in addition to tractors and gravs and tachyons) that are almost always a good idea to have under an ff?
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Flak turrets feel weak
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2012, 06:34:13 pm »
I could just make flaks (and potentially lightnings) totally exempt from the 75% damage reduction from being under an ff.

That would make it rather optimal to put them there, and I don't like making anything all that obvious... but would it be so bad to have a few more turrets (in addition to tractors and gravs and tachyons) that are almost always a good idea to have under an ff?

This would make me a happy duck.  Being able to protect my short range turrets would make them 10x more viable, simply because they'd still be around for a second shot, and maybe even a third!

Btw, the new version with 45+ Lightning Turrets spamming a storm?  Absolutely beautiful.  Just beautiful.  At 120 of them...  :o
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Flak turrets feel weak
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2012, 07:07:01 pm »
I could just make flaks (and potentially lightnings) totally exempt from the 75% damage reduction from being under an ff.

That would make it rather optimal to put them there, and I don't like making anything all that obvious... but would it be so bad to have a few more turrets (in addition to tractors and gravs and tachyons) that are almost always a good idea to have under an ff?

I don't know. Every time we had a short range unit struggling with this mechanic, you found something other than yet another new immunity to deal with it.

The game has had a long precedent of everything under a friendly hard FF gets the damage penalty, no matter range, use, damage type, or any other factor. I see no reason to change that.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Flak turrets feel weak
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2012, 07:07:38 pm »
Btw, the new version with 45+ Lightning Turrets spamming a storm?  Absolutely beautiful.  Just beautiful.  At 120 of them...  :o
Yea, I had figured it would look nice, but when I actually tested it... wow :)

I bet that's not what the AI ships were thinking.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Flak turrets feel weak
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2012, 07:12:34 pm »
Btw, the new version with 45+ Lightning Turrets spamming a storm?  Absolutely beautiful.  Just beautiful.  At 120 of them...  :o
Yea, I had figured it would look nice, but when I actually tested it... wow :)

I bet that's not what the AI ships were thinking.

Does that mean you buffed a bit too much?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Flak turrets feel weak
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2012, 07:47:06 pm »
Btw, the new version with 45+ Lightning Turrets spamming a storm?  Absolutely beautiful.  Just beautiful.  At 120 of them...  :o
Yea, I had figured it would look nice, but when I actually tested it... wow :)

I bet that's not what the AI ships were thinking.

Does that mean you buffed a bit too much?
Scrooge ;)

I meant the visual effect.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Flak turrets feel weak
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2012, 08:16:58 pm »
What about a REALLY small dampening field for these turrets, so they're not spawn and die?  You'd have to actually travel to the turret (admittedly, it's not going to be THAT far away), but anything tractor held couldn't thump it at whim.  Spreading them out would be more viable too.

When I say short, I mean like 100 meters (or whatever unit we're using is) short.  You'd have to park on top of it to shoot it.  I'd even take a health reduction for something like that for these turrets, simply because they'd still live 2-3x longer because they wouldn't always be the primary target of the alpha strike.  The flaks in particular would probably need to have their life halved for a buff like that.
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Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Flak turrets feel weak
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2012, 09:21:52 pm »
I approve of both the FF and the dampening idea.

Can someone do me a screenshot of the 'storm'?
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Flak turrets feel weak
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2012, 10:22:44 pm »
I approve of both the FF and the dampening idea.

Can someone do me a screenshot of the 'storm'?

It really only does it justice in realtime.  Crank off an AI 2/2 game with 4 homeworlds and setup a whipping boy with 160 of them or so.  It's beautiful.  Not exactly deadly, but it IS beautiful.
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Flak turrets feel weak
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2012, 10:23:55 pm »
Putting a really late comment in because I don't check the forums as often as I should (which is really bad for me) that has no connection to the current conversation in the post(s) above me. 

;)

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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Flak turrets feel weak
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2012, 10:24:42 pm »
It's the fact that the blob alpha means flaks go down after one shot that is the primary problem.

The cost thing was meant as a reference to that if you want punching bags (which flaks currently are) shield generators are better.

The mlrs comparison I think at its route is based on the range issue.

Dampening or no force field penalty would work.
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