Author Topic: faq//manual?  (Read 2487 times)

Offline vonduus

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faq//manual?
« on: January 21, 2010, 08:24:06 am »
I gave the trial version of the expansion a try this morning, and it looks really good. I thought I would play a few hours and get used to at least some of the new features, while waiting for my economy to stabilize, so I can afford to unlock it. (Not that I think it is expensive or anything, I just don't have any money right now ).

I am now familiar with and understand most of the features of the basic game, thanks to the well thought out tutorials, the pdf manual and the faq/manual wiki, and thanks to the developers and the users of this forum. (And of course because I have now played 100+ hours).

But when I search for something like a manual/faq referring to the expansion features, I find nothing. What I know about Zenith Remnant is what I have read in the update notes.

Is there a manual for Zenith Remnant? Or somewhere, where I can find all the information in one place, like the existing wiki? It is a quite tedious job to read through all posts and update notes.

(Perhaps you all at Arcen has been too busy to update the wiki, I can  understand that, given your workload. But by now the informationn in the wiki is not only incomplete, it is actually errroneous in some places. Like the fighter>bomber>cruiser>fighter swap, which is not reflected in the wiki  yet.)
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Offline carlosjuero

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Re: faq//manual?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 08:34:22 am »
The manual hasn't been updated yet and the Wiki is in the same situation.

Offline x4000

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Re: faq//manual?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2010, 10:32:49 am »
What sort of information are you really looking for?  There's not much in the core gameplay that has particularly changed with the expansion -- everything is special ships that are documented in-game when you run into them, or via tooltips in the lobby.  On the wiki, at the moment all we have is errata for specific ships that have extra questions associated with them, and there haven't been any for the expansion yet where questions have come up that were not covered in in-game tooltips to my knowledge.  Where possible, we try to wrap the explanations and instructions into the game itself, rather than leaning on the manual or wiki -- of course that is not always possible, but that's the general strategy we use, anyway.

Duly noted about the core triangle being out of date on the wiki, though; some things like that get out of date with time, and I try to catch what I can while also relying on the community to let me know when I've missed something.  I'll take care of that in the next batch of AI War updates I'm looking at either tonight or tomorrow.

I'm not trying to be obtuse about the manual or wiki expansion updates, but I'm not really sure what people are looking for with that at this stage -- so hence me asking, I'm really curious.  I don't think that doing a full duplication of all the in-game data on all the ships is worthwhile, it's not meant to be a comprehensive encyclopedia of that sort of information, but in terms of the sort of information that is already in the manual and wiki about the base game, what do people feel like is generally missing for the expansion?
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Offline deMangler

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Re: faq//manual?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2010, 12:10:21 pm »
I must admit one of the things I was sort of reflexively expecting was some kind of updated manual when I installed Zenith.
I looked in the install directory for a bit and then just thought, ok, no worries, but the expectation was there.
I guess it is a common thing for RTS type people to like documentation and lists.... (It can't just be me)
Anyway, I am not suggesting that the fact that there wasn't one is an omission, especially given the value of the game and the availability of the info in-game. I know how much work it is producing good documentation having had to produce manuals for software myself, and I accept that in this case it is not 'necessary'. Being a coder type I am more than happy with a changelog.
However, I suspect that the reflexive urge for some new documentation junkie 'fix' would have been satisfied with maybe the changelog and some kind of summary, presenting the changes and a bit of context for the gamer, all in a pdf perhaps with a bit of logo art or something.
Since you ask what is missing then that would sum it up for most buyers of the expansion, I presume to suggest.....  :)
By the way, the existing documentation is great, I actually printed and laminated the shortcut keys reference... Now I haven't done that since..... erm...... Jagged Alliance 2. Blimey, 10 years seems like yesterday.
Moving on......

dM
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 12:17:43 pm by deMangler »

Offline RCIX

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Re: faq//manual?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2010, 04:12:56 pm »
Yeah it would be nice to have a manual showing all the new goodies....

Oh trust me, i looked at the changelog. Hard to read.

I guess Revenantus would be the best choice as he did the current manual, where is he? :)
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Offline x4000

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Re: faq//manual?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2010, 04:14:36 pm »
He's had to take a bit of a step back due to personal reasons at the moment.  We'll see him around again later on, I think, but at the moment he's not much available.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: faq//manual?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2010, 04:22:18 pm »
That's cool, life always comes first!
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Offline vonduus

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Re: faq//manual?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2010, 06:30:56 pm »
I guess I am a theoretically minded gamer. Sometimes I spend more time thinking of how to play than actually  playing. This is an important  part of gaming for me.  I have an ongoing game with a friend, we only play in the weekends, but we both think of our AIWar game every day of the week, analyzing, planning.

The kind of information I want is anything that contributes to this analyzing and planning.

The ultimate strategical goal is to find the winning doctrine, if there is such a thing in this game. If you, x, manage to create a game that can be beaten but has no winning doctrine, you win automatically, as you then have created something equivalent to chess. You are the real opponent, it is your AI that plays simultaneously against the whole world (including yourself). So I don't expect you to help us on the doctrine level, that would spoil the game.

Dear X4000, you are a man of many words. You are very generous with information. I have spent hours and hours with your update notes. There is very much indirect information in there. I read, for example, that some unit has been nerfed in a specific way, and this can sometimes tell me what your original intention with designing this specific ship was. Some units have some special abilities that are not documented, or that just escaped me, until I read about them being fixed or nerfed or boosted in some way. I consider this intelligence gathering, it is part of the fun. You have been most helpful on this level.

And the basic tutorials, the printable manual and the wiki are excellent. So in a way I got all the information I want.

The direct reason for my post was that I have heard a lot about golems, but I have never seen one in action. I am out of cash, so I cannot unlock the expansion before next week, and I don't want to play the trial version, I fear I might die of frustration when the three hour clock strikes. Better wait till I can play a full game, and I am still quite busy getting deeper  into the basic game. But I thought I might benefit on checking up on what kind of thing a golem really is, and do some strategic thinking in advance. By reading announcements, update notes and other forum posts I had already gathered a  lot of indirect and unfocused information about golems, creating a fuzzy concept in the process. What I wanted was some exact information, that could clear as much of this fuzziness as possible, before I run into a real, live golem. As an example, I would like to know beforehand if it is something I shall kill or capture or both (these possibilities has not been decided yet in my fuzzy concept).

What I expected, I guess, was just an official entry somewhere on golems. I mean, when you hear of the expansion, what you remember is the golems, so I thought that your public relations department (I guess that is also you) had provided some entry somewhere, where we customers are told some lore and given some hard information and maybe some instructions.  I did several searches, first on the wiki, then on the forum. I was a bit surprised, when I found that what I thought was one of the main  features of the expansion doesn't even have its own entry on the internet. Instead I got a ton of hits from all over the place, most of them from your update notes. So this is probably where you can find me the next few days, gathering intelligence on golems.

Your in-game approach of course is the one to follow, as you plan to change things continuously, and an in-depth printed manual, even a pdf manual, is probably not worth the trouble. And if I really want all the raw ship stats, I am sure that you have already provided an in-game hotkey for that purpose.

I am still a newbie, and as such I suggest that every time you release an expansion, you select certain key units (all your darlings) and show them off in the wiki, leaving all the rest in the 'fog of the game' to be explored by the players. When the next expansion comes out, I will probably not be using the wiki any more, or any printable manual, at that time being an experienced oldie, but there is always a newbie, every expansion you release will inevitable attract more people. And it is when you are a newbie that you get cinfused if the manual says one thing and the game does something else. Experienced players don't read the manual any more, and they tend to adapt quickly to changes (unless the change killed their particular darling).

All this is just my personal view on things, but it cannot just be me (thank you, deMangler)

Well then, it seems I am a man of many words too.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 06:42:32 pm by vonduus »
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Offline RCIX

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Re: faq//manual?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2010, 06:38:44 pm »
Hmm, never heard of anyone that treats information gathering as as much of a game as playing itself :)
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Offline vonduus

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Re: faq//manual?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2010, 08:33:58 pm »
@ x4000: What you just did here: http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,3392.0.html is kind of what I was looking for. With a little edit, this can go to the wiki under the topic 'How to kill a mining golem'

@ RCIX: I only do it when I have problems with a game. There is tons of information in  update reports, so much that it is almost an exploit. In most games I don't do it. But most games don't last very long on my computer.  It is like the thinking/playing ratio - i remember Civilisation as one of the games where I thought more than i played for a very long time. In the end i figured out how to crack the nut, and that was the end of thinking. And playing.  I guess it is a trait I brought along from board gaming.
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Offline x4000

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Re: faq//manual?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2010, 10:53:43 pm »
Okay, all good points here.  You'll be pleased to know that the wiki has a ton of updates now.  Not everything, but it should more than whet your appetite.  The golem information, in particular, is pretty complete.  Great suggestion!  If there are other topics people would like to see me cover later, I can look into adding more stuff, too.
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Offline Oewyn

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Re: faq//manual?
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2010, 12:24:27 am »
One thing to note about the artillery golem:  It's shots ignore shields, but they don't ignore force fields.  Since I have never seen an AI home station w/out 2-3 Core force fields (~ 68M health i think), this thing is fairly useless against AI home command stations.  The best use I've seen for it is to kill an Ion cannon across the map on an enemy homeworld, after the orbital mass driver was taken out of course.

Offline deMangler

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Re: faq//manual?
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2010, 01:28:23 am »

Offline vonduus

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Re: faq//manual?
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2010, 06:01:25 am »
Thanks a lot, x, as always you provide far more than was asked for. This information in the wiki is superb.

One small question though: Why is the heading "Ship errata??"
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Offline x4000

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Re: faq//manual?
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2010, 10:06:54 am »
One thing to note about the artillery golem:  It's shots ignore shields, but they don't ignore force fields.  Since I have never seen an AI home station w/out 2-3 Core force fields (~ 68M health i think), this thing is fairly useless against AI home command stations.  The best use I've seen for it is to kill an Ion cannon across the map on an enemy homeworld, after the orbital mass driver was taken out of course.

Ah, you must be playing on difficulty 8 or something.  Generally on Diff 7 and down there is just one such forcefield, and the artillery golem can thus take out all of the above with a couple of shots.

:)

Loved this: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Zenith_Aliens

Glad it's a hit! :)

Thanks a lot, x, as always you provide far more than was asked for. This information in the wiki is superb.

One small question though: Why is the heading "Ship errata??"

My pleasure.  At some point I'll try to add some more -- specifically, the new astro trains could use some explanation, along with a few other things I have in mind.

Regarding that one heading of "Ship Errata," I went on and changed that to "Ship Strategies & Errata."  That's basically what it is, a bunch of extra notes about certain ships, paired with a bunch of strategy advice.  Good note that errata alone was not descriptive enough a title. :)
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