Fab hacking insanity

[LintMan]

I just tried fabricator hacking for the first time, and the AI response was totally insane.  Is it supposed to do this?

First, the situation: I started the game in 7.001 and brought in the new hacking beta stuff midway through.  Previous to that, I had knowledge-hacked a single planet and the AI hacking response was described as "moderate".  Then, after playing much further, my AIP was over 600, and so was my hacking points.  So I decided to hack a fab, and all hell broke loose.  For the next 5 minutes, the AI sent multiple Mk III waves at any of my planets - including those behind the lines, seemingly every 20-30 seconds, timed to arrive between 30 seconds and 3 minutes later.  At one point, I counted 16 (!) incoming waves listed in the notification area, even as I fought off several other ones.

What the hell?

I thought having plenty of hacking points was supposed to keep the AI response minimal and it would only go nuts if you went negative.

I also had thought most hacking response was confined to the planet you were hacking.  I can live with waves sent to the usual planets bordering warp gates, but this behind-the-lines stuff is BS.

[keith.lamothe]

The base response is from the AIP, so having really high AIP (like 600) will lead to crazy responses.  It's possible that the base needs to be like half of AIP or whatever, we're still figuring that out.

Having excess positive HaP does not actually reduce the response, it just avoids the ramp-up that happens in the negatives.

[Shrugging Khan]

So one can assume that it would be ideal to spend HaP as soon as possible, while the benefits are already as good as they get and the AI response is still relatively tame? 

[keith.lamothe]

So one can assume that it would be ideal to spend HaP as soon as possible, while the benefits are already as good as they get and the AI response is still relatively tame? 

It depends. 

Are you expecting a 200 point increase in AIP in the near future?  Then yea, you probably want to get your hacking out of the way before that. 

Are you expecting a 20 point increase in AIP in the near future?  That probably doesn't make much difference in the hacking response, so if there's some important reason you want to wait (for instance, that 20 AIP you're planning to take is for getting a planet within non-deepstrike range of the AdvFact you want to hack) then that's probably more important than the difference in the hacking response.

[Tridus]

Maybe the hacking response should be the difference between AIP and HaP or something along that line, so it doesn't punish you so much for waiting to hack until later. I almost never hack in the early game because I don't know what I want to use it for until I've made some progress in the game.

[keith.lamothe]

Maybe the hacking response should be the difference between AIP and HaP or something along that line, so it doesn't punish you so much for waiting to hack until later. I almost never hack in the early game because I don't know what I want to use it for until I've made some progress in the game.

The idea is that the response from just-AIP (no negative HaP) shouldn't really be a big deal unless you've run the AIP up really high.  It should be enough of a fight to keep you on your toes (and interested in what's going on), but not enough to seriously threaten you unless you make a significant mistake or are playing a crazy scenario.

There are two main reasons it goes off AIP:

1) If the base response doesn't increase with AIP, hacking responses in a particular scenario will either be crushingly hard in the early game or trivially easy in the mid/late game.
2) If the base response doesn't increase with AIP, FS players get a LOT of hacking with little resistance.

From a game balance perspective I'd be fine with there being _no_ response unless HaP were negative, but that's not much fun.  That's basically what Knowledge Raiding was before it became Knowledge Hacking: easy to do, but annoying to do (largely because it was easy).

[keith.lamothe]

Another thing, which makes me wary of making "base response = AIP - HaP" or whatever is that when you have HaP I don't want you to be motivated to hoard it.  Beyond the usual, at least.  If hacking gets harder and harder the more you spend (even if you stay positive) then that's a pretty strong push-back against you using a resource I want you to use.

Something like that may be necessary in the long run, we'll see, but I think the just-AIP approach can work in the sane ranges of AIP, with some appropriate divisor or whatever.  For the insane ones maybe it needs to have some kind of cap (on the base response when HaP is non-negative) to throw the player a bone, unless they've got Spire Cities or whatever.

[LintMan]

Is the hacking response being scaled by the AIP new?  Because in previous games, I'm pretty sure I've hacked stuff at 500+ or 600+ AIP and not seen responses anything like that.  I've also sat on a SuperTerminal for 200+ AIP reduction, where the AI response was at "Forest Fire" and it was popping out batches of core attack ships, and that still wasn't as bad as this because at least those went to where my fleet was, rather than undefended rear planets with 30 seconds warning.

[chemical_art]

I think that either positive HaP should reduce response, perhaps directly fromthe base aip. That way there is  no pressure to plan late game on minimalizing aip till needed aip is done.

In their current form it is a bit like the old FS...game progress is slowed down in order to make a part easier.

[Tridus]

Another thing, which makes me wary of making "base response = AIP - HaP" or whatever is that when you have HaP I don't want you to be motivated to hoard it.  Beyond the usual, at least.  If hacking gets harder and harder the more you spend (even if you stay positive) then that's a pretty strong push-back against you using a resource I want you to use.

Something like that may be necessary in the long run, we'll see, but I think the just-AIP approach can work in the sane ranges of AIP, with some appropriate divisor or whatever.  For the insane ones maybe it needs to have some kind of cap (on the base response when HaP is non-negative) to throw the player a bone, unless they've got Spire Cities or whatever.

I guess the problem is that you're encouraging me to blow it as soon as I can instead, because hacking earlier is going to be strictly easier than hacking later. HaP at that point isn't so much a resource I can spend to do easy hacks, and rather more a "you can do this much hacking before the response goes from hard to totally insane".

Personally I'd rather view it as more of a resource to be used that makes hacking easier while you have it, and maybe adjust the costs of hacks (or how much HaP you get) as necessary to achieve that.

[keith.lamothe]

Hmm, ok, fair enough.  For next release we can try base response = AIP - HaP.  This will actually make negatives hurt more, but I don't mind

[ZaneWolfe]

I did a hack on a MKV Leach Starship fab, my first hack of the game btw, and it was spawning COUNTER ATTACK WAVES on MY worlds with timers in the 30 SECONDS range. If I may be so bold, what the hell is up with that? Thankfully I only had 3 worlds so my forces weren't spread that thin, but I still lost one world so I got hit with the Shark Plot (Both A and B) and things went down hill from there. So to ask again, what the hell? Not that I am terribly upset that it can do that now, but why was there no warning about that in the patch notes, and why does it spawn waves with 30 SECOND TIMERS, on THE FIRST HACK of the game. I had about 300 AIP, so I should have had plenty of wiggle room with over 300 Hacking Progress to use.

Posting this here as well since I didn't notice this thread before I posted this. Yeah I think its a tad excessive right now Keith. I do think that you can fix it a bit by making the waves spawn as if done from a CA post of the same level as the world. Only rather than having timers in the 10 min range have them go from 4-6 min range. Because 3 min is pushing it a bit and 30 seconds is just broken IMO. And considering the way I play, that's saying a few things.

[keith.lamothe]

The counter-waves and such as hacking responses have been in the game for a few months, iirc, it's just that you haven't been ramping up the response that much before

[LintMan]

I guess the problem is that you're encouraging me to blow it as soon as I can instead, because hacking earlier is going to be strictly easier than hacking later. HaP at that point isn't so much a resource I can spend to do easy hacks, and rather more a "you can do this much hacking before the response goes from hard to totally insane".

Personally I'd rather view it as more of a resource to be used that makes hacking easier while you have it, and maybe adjust the costs of hacks (or how much HaP you get) as necessary to achieve that.

Totally agree with this.

[Eternaly_Lost]

I guess the problem is that you're encouraging me to blow it as soon as I can instead, because hacking earlier is going to be strictly easier than hacking later. HaP at that point isn't so much a resource I can spend to do easy hacks, and rather more a "you can do this much hacking before the response goes from hard to totally insane".

Personally I'd rather view it as more of a resource to be used that makes hacking easier while you have it, and maybe adjust the costs of hacks (or how much HaP you get) as necessary to achieve that.

Totally agree with this.

So do I. That was what I first thought when I was reading about it. The more HaP you have, and the less you need for that hack you are doing, the less that the AI is going to care about the hack and send counter hacking forces at you. Well if HaP goes negative, it going to really care really fast.