Human Threat Meter?

[TechSY730]

As the special forces "overflow" into threat fleet idea seems to be somewhat well recieved, I went ahead and put it on mantis.

9905: Allow some Special Forces ships to go into threat fleet when SF is near cap (or some other cutoff).

Vote up (or down) and comment as you want.

I don't think the AI should attack without provocation. If it wanted to preempt the humans it would have sent an HK to the home command before the game even began.

Well, it sort of already does. Border aggression (where excess defenders are freed) is one such "attack without provocation" mechanic that you can't turn off. It is just that the conditions for it to happen (rather than the AI leaving that planet at defender cap and trying to reinforce some other planet) tends to be such that you won't see it until late-mid to late game, and that is only if you leave a planet alerted for a long time (so its defenders gets a chance to build up).
(It is important to note that border aggression becomes easier to trigger as AIP goes up, it could be a similar story for the SF into threat fleet mechanic)

[TechSY730]

What I'd like to see is the AI saying 'oh look, the humans are massing THERE. I should do something about that.' Local defense forces are frequently not enough (which is why the AI reinforces the way it does) but it should have a mobile, unconstrained force to address the threat.

One way of doing it.

Or treating a "planet under significant attack" (aka, a blob) as a planet worth defending (though not as high priority, and certainly not all the special forces as that would make it too easy to bait).

[LaughingThesaurus]

What I'd like to see is the AI saying 'oh look, the humans are massing THERE. I should do something about that.' Local defense forces are frequently not enough (which is why the AI reinforces the way it does) but it should have a mobile, unconstrained force to address the threat.

One way of doing it.

Or treating a "planet under significant attack" (aka, a blob) as a planet worth defending (though not as high priority, and certainly not all the special forces as that would make it too easy to bait).

Well, lordsloth and I have played at least a bit of a game. He actually sent his vorticular cutlasses (I think) to a rally point leading to a world with a CSG or an ARS. One of those. The special forces stayed there forever constantly blowing up his cannon fodder free insant-build ships.

[Drjones013]

LOL, silly AI. Obvious targeting issue but hilarious results. Honestly, it's a mistake that even humans make (read anything on counter-insurgency from the 1980s and your head will explode).

[TechSY730]

What I'd like to see is the AI saying 'oh look, the humans are massing THERE. I should do something about that.' Local defense forces are frequently not enough (which is why the AI reinforces the way it does) but it should have a mobile, unconstrained force to address the threat.

One way of doing it.

Or treating a "planet under significant attack" (aka, a blob) as a planet worth defending (though not as high priority, and certainly not all the special forces as that would make it too easy to bait).

Well, lordsloth and I have played at least a bit of a game. He actually sent his vorticular cutlasses (I think) to a rally point leading to a world with a CSG or an ARS. One of those. The special forces stayed there forever constantly blowing up his cannon fodder free insant-build ships.

Yea, the special forces is a bit too easily baitible right now. They need some way to detect obvious "beachead baits" where you are clearly not trying to take the planet but bait and take out special forces (some sort of firepower consideration would help with that, though it wouldn't be enough to spot all obvious cases).
I also think special forces needs to group move, or at least some of the special forces should, so they don't stream in uselessly. (Having only some of the special forces group move would allow some of the faster ships to remain "fast response" units, and prevent special forces from becoming a non-issue if the AI unlocked a very slow bonus ship type)

[Drjones013]

Yea, the special forces is a bit too easily baitible right now. They need some way to detect obvious "beachead baits" where you are clearly not trying to take the planet but bait and take out special forces (some sort of firepower consideration would help with that, though it wouldn't be enough to spot all obvious cases).
I also think special forces needs to group move, or at least some of the special forces should, so they don't stream in uselessly. (Having only some of the special forces group move would allow some of the faster ships to remain "fast response" units, and prevent special forces from becoming a non-issue if the AI unlocked a very slow bonus ship type)

I think this is key. The SF need some kind of logic which tells them 'find the source' and kill it. In a situation where the FP of the human player is greater than the FP of the computer, the computer should wait until threat FP = say 50% of human FP and then SLAM the human defenses. When the FP of the human player = say 60% of its original value then the SF should come in and slam the fleet ball. A one-two punch, so to speak. Obviously the percentages are up for debate.

[LaughingThesaurus]

LOL, silly AI. Obvious targeting issue but hilarious results. Honestly, it's a mistake that even humans make (read anything on counter-insurgency from the 1980s and your head will explode).

There's actually a particular game of Starcraft 2 from one of Day9's funday mondays, where the condition is that you can only attack with worker harassment. What happens? Well, the bad guy has two bases. They both keep getting dropped by terran in succession, and the guy keeps moving his entire army to engage each group of 8 marines as they come. By the time it's all over, the bad guy's lost 40 workers or so.
Seriously.
So yeah I guess humans can make those mistakes. XD

[Coppermantis]

LOL, silly AI. Obvious targeting issue but hilarious results. Honestly, it's a mistake that even humans make (read anything on counter-insurgency from the 1980s and your head will explode).

There's actually a particular game of Starcraft 2 from one of Day9's funday mondays, where the condition is that you can only attack with worker harassment. What happens? Well, the bad guy has two bases. They both keep getting dropped by terran in succession, and the guy keeps moving his entire army to engage each group of 8 marines as they come. By the time it's all over, the bad guy's lost 40 workers or so.
Seriously.
So yeah I guess humans can make those mistakes. XD

I've had some guy do that to me with Blink Stalkers+Warp Prism drops. It was early on so neither of us had much army but he would drop zealots in my natural and as I moved to defend he blinked stalkers up to my main and as I moved back he dropped zealots again and blinked the stalkers back out. T'was unpleasant.

[LordSloth]

Regarding that game of LT and I....
I had all sorts of overly complicated thoughts with regards to the Special Forces, like it only dispatching a proportional part of its force, but that is just as gamey - leading to cheesing it for defeat in detail.

Instead, I've switched to contemplating the patrols "writing off" a system, although I still see room for cheesing it, in particular with the first suggestion. These are only a couple brainstorms, no more:

• If there are no more guard posts, the system is indefensible enough the AI should wonder what it is achieving, and whether it is a clear trap. Perhaps reduce the number of Spec Forces that can come to the party for each guard post that comes down. Alternatively, spec forces will only come in from adjacent systems, and adjacent spec force posts reinforce at a much higher rate, while the main body of the spec forces waits in reserve.
• Limit the response based on the mark of the system. A mark IV or III system is easier to defend than a mark II, after all. The special forces will try to maintain a 2:1 advantage in a markII  system, a 3:1 advantage in a mark III system, etc. Possibly adjusted upward. While I was pumping an incredible number of cutlasses into that system, only three or four were alive at any time. On the other hand, if the spec forces pulled out and my cutlasses built up, they'd come right back in...
• This disproportionate response does actually lead to some interesting strategic choices. I've taken worlds just to pop the CSGs so I could move my fleet between distant systems without aggroing the special forces.
• If you couldn't draw the special forces to a system or grind them down in a trap, how would you counter special forces that strictly outmatched you? Like Tackle Drone Launchers before the rebalance?

I'm personally OK with the the difficulty on Seven, btw. I'm a bit afraid of new mechanics since I already have to adjust to patrols and reserves.

[Drjones013]

The Special Forces (SF) need some kind of logic to say 'if Human firepower (FP) threshold exceeds 'x' at 'y' planet, attack.' In a situation where the FP of the human player is greater than the FP of the computer, the computer should wait until threat FP = say 50% of human FP and then SLAM the human defenses. When the FP of the human player = say 60% of its original value then the SF should come in and slam the fleet ball. A one-two punch, so to speak. Obviously the percentages are up for debate.

Does this appeal to players? What percentage should I recommend in Mantis?

[LordSloth]

And would not the logical conclusion of that behavior simply be to go out of your way to kill the special forces ahead of the time, every time?

Actually, you said threat when talking about human FP being greater than AI FP... Did you mean SF, or free threat, just to be clear.

[KDR_11k]

I don't think the SF should be usable on the offense, they're too strong for that. They're fine as a sort of time limit on your operations on another planet but maybe there should be more to that as well (SF movement speed affected by the size of the human force on the target planet? Or conversely a delay before they even start moving if your force is small?). They definitely should not attack and not fuel attacks either outside of very special circumstances (SF alarm post, for example). If there's a threat meter maybe maxing that out would free the SF but then again that would mean you could just keep maxing it out if you managed to survive the first assault and killed all the special forces.

[keith.lamothe]

I don't think the SF should be usable on the offense, they're too strong for that.

And I agree, which is why they never purposefully move through a non-AI planet (and I think they're pretty good at avoiding doing it by accident).

SF is an extension of the guard forces, really: if the AI could just throw its guards at you you'd die every game really fast.