Engineer Repair Preferences

[HellishFiend]

Most of us are against anything that adds micro. Things like adding checkboxes can quickly become a slippery slope...

We'll see what everyone thinks, though.

[keith.lamothe]

I've thought a fair bit about the application of the ff12 gambit system/concept (of which the DA system was essentially a brutal clone ) to this game, but I'm not sure it could be worked out as a remotely mainstream (i.e. necessary to get 80%+ effectiveness out of a basic unit) feature due to the fairly intense level of complexity.  In FF12 and DA you controlled a very limited number of units, let alone types of units, in AI War things are much larger in scale.

One idea is a having a sort of control node network with ship-filter-nodes, condition-nodes, and behavior nodes such that the physical layout actually influences the behavior logic of the appropriate ships, but honestly that sounds like a different game   And doing the same thing in the UI (which is basically the ff12 gambit system) would have the same problems while taking 5x as long to code.

But yea, it'd be nice to avoid continual addition of hyper-specialized units.  On the other hand, if you really need a few units per front-line system to take care of those engines that absolutely, positively need to be repaired yesterday...

Tradeoffs aren't just for players

[Anticept]

Curious, why do we even have tugs? I can understand engine tugs, but how about a fleet logic so that when a ship is damaged enough, it will head for the MRS on it's own.

If the ship is too slow, or has engine damage, then it will call for engine tugs.

Also, tugs should not have to be managed they way they do. Have them dock in the MRS until needed or ordered by the player to undock.

[RCIX]

Curious, why do we even have tugs? I can understand engine tugs, but how about a fleet logic so that when a ship is damaged enough, it will head for the MRS on it's own.

If the ship is too slow, or has engine damage, then it will call for engine tugs.

Also, tugs should not have to be managed they way they do. Have them dock in the MRS until needed or ordered by the player to undock.

The tugs ensure a fast and even extraction speed for all ships.

My MRS overhaul suggestion does recommend tug docking (it's slated to be looked at)

[Velox]

Curious, why do we even have tugs? I can understand engine tugs, but how about a fleet logic so that when a ship is damaged enough, it will head for the MRS on it's own.

If the ship is too slow, or has engine damage, then it will call for engine tugs.

Also, tugs should not have to be managed they way they do. Have them dock in the MRS until needed or ordered by the player to undock.

The tugs ensure a fast and even extraction speed for all ships.

My MRS overhaul suggestion does recommend tug docking (it's slated to be looked at)

      I think it's a bad idea.  Not being able to have the tugs standing by near the battle means losing ships.

      Edit: had an idea:

      Unless tugs could teleport-move when not encumbered.  In THAT case, docking tugs would be brilliant; it would also eliminate all of the difficulties involved in making sure the closest tug goes to make a pickup, etc.  If the procedure looked something like:

     1. Ship hits danger threshold
     2. Tug emerges from MRS
     3. Tug teleports to endangered vessel and engages tractor
     4. Tug drags ship back to MRS under conventional drive
     5. If there's more work to be done, tug heads back out; if not, it re-docks

     ... then I would instantly be the happiest of campers.  No more micro, no more sub-optimal behavior annoyances.

     Additionally - could the difficulties involved in docking tugs and per-MRS caps etc be solved by implementing tugs as modules on the MRS?

[Doddler]

I don't really like the tugs... I mean it's a neat concept, but if the repair ship is going to fly autonomous units out to the ship, why don't those units just do the repair right there and have the MRS just act as a carrier of sorts?

[HellishFiend]

I don't really like the tugs... I mean it's a neat concept, but if the repair ship is going to fly autonomous units out to the ship, why don't those units just do the repair right there and have the MRS just act as a carrier of sorts?

Well, tugs can drag a ship away from being fired upon. Engineers and even MRS cant repair something that is under attack.

[Velox]

I don't really like the tugs... I mean it's a neat concept, but if the repair ship is going to fly autonomous units out to the ship, why don't those units just do the repair right there and have the MRS just act as a carrier of sorts?

Well, tugs can drag a ship away from being fired upon. Engineers and even MRS cant repair something that is under attack.

      Yup.  For one thing, ships under fire can't be repaired, and ships under a LOT of fire need to get the heck out of dodge...

[Anticept]

Curious, why do we even have tugs? I can understand engine tugs, but how about a fleet logic so that when a ship is damaged enough, it will head for the MRS on it's own.

If the ship is too slow, or has engine damage, then it will call for engine tugs.

Also, tugs should not have to be managed they way they do. Have them dock in the MRS until needed or ordered by the player to undock.

The tugs ensure a fast and even extraction speed for all ships.

My MRS overhaul suggestion does recommend tug docking (it's slated to be looked at)

      I think it's a bad idea.  Not being able to have the tugs standing by near the battle means losing ships.

      Edit: had an idea:

      Unless tugs could teleport-move when not encumbered.  In THAT case, docking tugs would be brilliant; it would also eliminate all of the difficulties involved in making sure the closest tug goes to make a pickup, etc.  If the procedure looked something like:

Tugs dock until needed. That's the key. Unlike now where they just hang in space waiting for something to do.

My whole point is that we have to build 80 tugs to really make use of all the capabilities of an MRS... seriously, lets change the logic, not add MORE of the buggers

[Velox]

Curious, why do we even have tugs? I can understand engine tugs, but how about a fleet logic so that when a ship is damaged enough, it will head for the MRS on it's own.

If the ship is too slow, or has engine damage, then it will call for engine tugs.

Also, tugs should not have to be managed they way they do. Have them dock in the MRS until needed or ordered by the player to undock.

The tugs ensure a fast and even extraction speed for all ships.

My MRS overhaul suggestion does recommend tug docking (it's slated to be looked at)

      I think it's a bad idea.  Not being able to have the tugs standing by near the battle means losing ships.

      Edit: had an idea:

      Unless tugs could teleport-move when not encumbered.  In THAT case, docking tugs would be brilliant; it would also eliminate all of the difficulties involved in making sure the closest tug goes to make a pickup, etc.  If the procedure looked something like:

Tugs dock until needed. That's the key. Unlike now where they just hang in space waiting for something to do.

My whole point is that we have to build 80 tugs to really make use of all the capabilities of an MRS... seriously, lets change the logic, not add MORE of the buggers

      No no, the point is not to add MORE tugs but to revise the existing ones.  There are two competing priorities:

     1) Minimizing micromanagement - it's a pain to build a ton of tugs and then manage them so that they stay with an MRS, are divided evenly among MRS locations, etc.  Docking tugs and per-MRS caps would get rid of this problem, except that it massively amplifies:
     2) Tug flight-to-action time - tugs may have to fly halfway across a system because they just sit by the MRS after getting a ship repaired; sometimes a close tug doesn't perform a pickup because a far one is on the way, causing ships to die, and it's a constant micromanagement hassle to keep your tugs staged by the battle.  You could move the MRS in close, but that kind of defeats the purpose.

     Making tugs a) dock and b) teleport when not dragging a vessel would get rid of both problems.  There would be no need to worry about tug location independent of an MRS: when not in action they'd be docked, and you could have tugs attached to an MRS either drop their cargo and teleport in/dock or just self-destruct when that MRS departs the system.  It would eliminate the pickup lag time and problem of selecting which tug should perform the pickup: if one's available it pops out of the MRS, teleports over, and starts tugging.

[Anticept]

Curious, why do we even have tugs? I can understand engine tugs, but how about a fleet logic so that when a ship is damaged enough, it will head for the MRS on it's own.

If the ship is too slow, or has engine damage, then it will call for engine tugs.

Also, tugs should not have to be managed they way they do. Have them dock in the MRS until needed or ordered by the player to undock.

The tugs ensure a fast and even extraction speed for all ships.

My MRS overhaul suggestion does recommend tug docking (it's slated to be looked at)

      I think it's a bad idea.  Not being able to have the tugs standing by near the battle means losing ships.

      Edit: had an idea:

      Unless tugs could teleport-move when not encumbered.  In THAT case, docking tugs would be brilliant; it would also eliminate all of the difficulties involved in making sure the closest tug goes to make a pickup, etc.  If the procedure looked something like:

Tugs dock until needed. That's the key. Unlike now where they just hang in space waiting for something to do.

My whole point is that we have to build 80 tugs to really make use of all the capabilities of an MRS... seriously, lets change the logic, not add MORE of the buggers

      No no, the point is not to add MORE tugs but to revise the existing ones.  There are two competing priorities:

     1) Minimizing micromanagement - it's a pain to build a ton of tugs and then manage them so that they stay with an MRS, are divided evenly among MRS locations, etc.  Docking tugs and per-MRS caps would get rid of this problem, except that it massively amplifies:
     2) Tug flight-to-action time - tugs may have to fly halfway across a system because they just sit by the MRS after getting a ship repaired; sometimes a close tug doesn't perform a pickup because a far one is on the way, causing ships to die, and it's a constant micromanagement hassle to keep your tugs staged by the battle.  You could move the MRS in close, but that kind of defeats the purpose.

     Making tugs a) dock and b) teleport when not dragging a vessel would get rid of both problems.  There would be no need to worry about tug location independent of an MRS: when not in action they'd be docked, and you could have tugs attached to an MRS either drop their cargo and teleport in/dock or just self-destruct when that MRS departs the system.  It would eliminate the pickup lag time and problem of selecting which tug should perform the pickup: if one's available it pops out of the MRS, teleports over, and starts tugging.

OH I see, you aren't like me. I like to keep my MRS and tugs closer to the fights

[Velox]

     Ah!  Indeed.  I like to keep them out of harm's way, usually at a strongpoint or beachhead covering my ingress wormhole.  I use them extensively in support of starships, so a location with countersniper coverage is pretty important - as is prompt pickup and the tugs' fast flight speed!

[RCIX]

     Ah!  Indeed.  I like to keep them out of harm's way, usually at a strongpoint or beachhead covering my ingress wormhole.  I use them extensively in support of starships, so a location with countersniper coverage is pretty important - as is prompt pickup and the tugs' fast flight speed!

Welcome to Tug Spacelines flight 435, we hope you have a good flight. Enjoy the complimentary bags of peanuts we just teleported on your ship. ignore the damage, it ought to be fixed soon.

[vonduus]

      No no, the point is not to add MORE tugs but to revise the existing ones. 

I am late to this discussion, but this line caught my eye. We (at least some of us) do not want more tug types.

As of now there are way too many tugs. In the beginning I thought, hey cool man, what a nice lot of small auxiliary ships. Now I have stopped building anything else than 66% fleet and 66% starship tugs. Only when my fleet goes beyond a certain size do I build 33% tugs. And I never build 100% tugs, I simply do not understand the concept of repairing a ship that isn't broken.  Pulling out and repairing a ship that has got 1% damage is imo an enormous waste of firepower. And the engine-repair tugs: Most of the time they just sit and do nothing, and when you really need them, they have all been killed by the last Ion Cannon you encountered. Rather than remembering all the time to check if I have still got all my six-seven-eight different types of tugs I prefer to just manually repair all ships with engine damage by help of my (ever-present) engineer squads. This is too much microing, some would say, but it is not as ridiculous as constantly checking if you still have got all those many different tug types.

The last few games I have actually stopped using tugs at all, instead I am bringing two-three MRSs along with the main fleet: One is right behind the fleet, the others are ready for fast deployment when the first one gets killed. Note: This is not to my liking, I really do like the tugs, the problem is that there are too many types.

Like the suggestion with an engine-repair-only engineer type, I don't like it. This might lead to a host of different engineer types, just like the tugs. Just inventing a new specialized ship type every time you feel the need will get us all bogged down in hordes of different auxiliary forces. Totally unneeded complexity imo. 

The constructive part of this post: I believe the way to go is to stipulate engine failure as some sort of major damage, equivalent to perhaps 75% 'conventional' damage, so that all repair tugs will grab a ship with engine damage. Just like the engineers now are all-purpose units.

In my favourite design there is one type of engineers (like now, with three tiers), and only two basic types of tugs: a fleet repair line (two flavours: 66/33), and a starship repair line (same two flavours).

[Velox]

      No no, the point is not to add MORE tugs but to revise the existing ones. 

I am late to this discussion, but this line caught my eye. We (at least some of us) do not want more tug types.

As of now there are way too many tugs. In the beginning I thought, hey cool man, what a nice lot of small auxiliary ships. Now I have stopped building anything else than 66% fleet and 66% starship tugs. Only when my fleet goes beyond a certain size do I build 33% tugs. And I never build 100% tugs, I simply do not understand the concept of repairing a ship that isn't broken.  Pulling out and repairing a ship that has got 1% damage is imo an enormous waste of firepower. And the engine-repair tugs: Most of the time they just sit and do nothing, and when you really need them, they have all been killed by the last Ion Cannon you encountered. Rather than remembering all the time to check if I have still got all my six-seven-eight different types of tugs I prefer to just manually repair all ships with engine damage by help of my (ever-present) engineer squads. This is too much microing, some would say, but it is not as ridiculous as constantly checking if you still have got all those many different tug types.

The last few games I have actually stopped using tugs at all, instead I am bringing two-three MRSs along with the main fleet: One is right behind the fleet, the others are ready for fast deployment when the first one gets killed. Note: This is not to my liking, I really do like the tugs, the problem is that there are too many types.

Like the suggestion with an engine-repair-only engineer type, I don't like it. This might lead to a host of different engineer types, just like the tugs. Just inventing a new specialized ship type every time you feel the need will get us all bogged down in hordes of different auxiliary forces. Totally unneeded complexity imo. 

The constructive part of this post: I believe the way to go is to stipulate engine failure as some sort of major damage, equivalent to perhaps 75% 'conventional' damage, so that all repair tugs will grab a ship with engine damage. Just like the engineers now are all-purpose units.

In my favourite design there is one type of engineers (like now, with three tiers), and only two basic types of tugs: a fleet repair line (two flavours: 66/33), and a starship repair line (same two flavours).

     I'm a tad confused, as your opener makes it seem like you're quoting something you disagree with, but the quote is me saying the same thing you're expanding on.  Just to be clear, I think teleport out/drag back should be a revision to the existing tugs and not a new type.
     Anyway!  I generally agree - there's definitely a tug micromanagement problem (and clutter problem, with all of the little guys loitering around the MRS.)  There are a few types I personally wouldn't miss at all (and - plug warning! - teleport-then-drag movement would obsolete the annoying 100% type, since the only reason they exist is to shorten pickup time by getting a tug moving early.)  I also always build a few engine tugs because I want engine-damaged ships to be dealt with automatically, but most of the time theyr'e just clutter.  I wouldn't want tug pickup for engine damaged ships to disappear completel, but I like your thought of having engine damage and real damage combined into a sort of "effective damage" that tugs would consider as a way of consolidating the two types.
     Ideally, I'd like teleport-out tugs that dock with the MRS when not in use (perhaps "tug bays" as modules built onto the MRS, each of which allows the station to launch one tug of the associated type.)  Like you, the only thing that annoys me about tugs is the herding; if they stayed tucked away (more like an added capability to the MRS than a stand-alone unit) without any requirement for me to keep track of them I'd be happy to have a wide variety of them available.  It would also be a good incentive to keep the MRS out of the line of fire...  However, the idea's a non-starter for me without teleport-out movement, since there'd be no way to mitigate the annoyance of long flight-to-pickup times without the ability to stage tugs closer to the fight.

     Anyway, good thoughts!