Author Topic: Energy Managament and Fortresses  (Read 8015 times)

Offline Dichotomy

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Re: Energy Managament and Fortresses
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2012, 12:53:45 am »
I think the fortresses could stand an energy buff. Nothing huge, though; maybe 70/90/130 instead of 90/120/180.
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Offline rabican

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Re: Energy Managament and Fortresses
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2012, 08:25:15 am »
The problem is that energy was rebalanced based on production cost, but then consumption was increased.

Want to see real problems with energy?  Try playing a Starship heavy game.  10,000 Energy EACH.  Using just the freebies, that's 19 starships, for 190,000 energy.  That's more than you have from your homeworld, including the Energy Collector and up to 40 Cryogenic Pods.  And that's without building a single fleetship, turret, scout, or anything else.  Neinzul Enclaves start at 15K, and actually go UP in energy costs.



"I shouldn't be able to build everything?"  Using nothing more than the starting 10,000 knowledge to enhance my starships, I can get to the point I require 390,000 energy without including Nienzul, cloakers, or scouts.  That's more than 2 planets of energy, for what should be my starting fleet.


You get more energy as you gain more planets, more than you can build ships. WAI.



10,000 energy is a lot.  Know what uses more energy than a starship?  Golems, H/Ks, the Mothership - and Fortresses.  That's about twice as much as a Mk V Guardian.  That's 4 times as much as a Mk V Guardpost.  It's 50 times the average fleetship's energy cost, and 5 times the highest 'fleetship' cost.

AI energy costs are irrelevant for the discussion. Only thing they matter is for IREs and lore wise the better AI ships are obiviously powered by human bioelectrical currents.

10,000 Energy?  That's 25% higher than the point where the Impulse Reaction Emitter hits the MAX CAP of the damage multiplier. 
90,000 Energy?  That's the highest energy consumption of anything.  That's about 5 times what the MOTHERSHIP uses.  It's completely off the scale of the rest of the game.


These are all good things. Without high SS energy cost there would be no limiters for early game. IRE getting clear role as anti SS ship, we needed more of those anyway. Fortresses are supposed to be energy hogs, nothing wrong there.


Basically, the energy changes made brownouts a more likely, and more dangerous.  So people developed workarounds (CHEESE!) already, but that's just more micro - exactly what this was supposed to avoid.  At the same time that the energy changes were forcing expansion, while increasing AIP effect and decreasing reducers, they made losing a system more painful, which forced people to consolidate to fewer ingress points - at the same time that changes were being made to attempt to force people to spread out and allow more ingress points.


Heh, my opinions are about 180 degrees different. My main consern for the new energy systems were that it would make energy completly meaningless(which it did, initially before SS energy costs were adjusted) and make those gutwrenching energy brownouts nonexistant(which also it did, you just have to pay for it). Losing a planet is lot less painful in the new system. Select hw, build 1-3 extra matter converters, problem solved. Previously you paused the game and either put things in lp mode (CHEESE!) or get out your excel spread sheets and calculator, go through every last one of your planets and do something inhuman(math) and put some energy colelctors all over the place. And then remove them after danger has passed.


Like Armor, Energy needs a real in-depth review.  The one it got managed to make energy more relevent to the game, sure, but brought major issues of its own.

Sorry for the minor rant.  I just feel that the system is broken, and saying 'you shouldn't expect to have everything' is both obvious, meaningless, and ignoring the problems that DO exist.




Well just my 0.2cents. Feel free to disagree :)


Offline TechSY730

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Re: Energy Managament and Fortresses
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2012, 09:45:59 am »
My feeling (summarized from my previous posts):

  • The new system is good, and better than the last one
  • The "meta-game" has not fully adjusted to it yet
  • Some of the values for the producers (both how much they produce AND, in the case of the converter, how much they cost per second) may need tweaking
  • Some of the energy costs of things may need tweaking in light of the fact it is now much more costly (in real, in-game costs) to adjust how much power you are producing or using

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Energy Managament and Fortresses
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2012, 11:40:21 am »
Try playing a Starship heavy game.  10,000 Energy EACH.
Yea, you can play ultra-low-planet-count, and you can play starship-heavy, but you can't really play both without running into the energy wall pretty hard.  Is there a problem with that?  There are three choices you can make to resolve that impasse: more planets, fewer starships, or more energy (make sure one of your planet captures is for a ZPG, invest in econ so you can support more converters).

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Using just the freebies, that's 19 starships, for 190,000 energy.  That's more than you have from your homeworld, including the Energy Collector and up to 40 Cryogenic Pods.
Sure, but why would you build every single starship available before capturing a single planet?  I'm not saying there aren't reasons you'd do so (though do you really need more than 1 or even more than zero cloakers and/or enclaves at that stage?), but it's certainly not "every game must start this way" by a long shot.

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Neinzul Enclaves start at 15K, and actually go UP in energy costs.
I didn't realize that, I could bring them down to 10k (non increasing, not much increases e-cost with mark nowadays), though there may have been a good reason for it at the time.

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Using nothing more than the starting 10,000 knowledge to enhance my starships, I can get to the point I require 390,000 energy without including Nienzul, cloakers, or scouts.  That's more than 2 planets of energy, for what should be my starting fleet.
Why should it be your starting fleet?  What gave you that impression?

If you want to toss those kinds of starships around, capture more planets.  It even makes lore-sense: if you focus on the little guys, you don't need as much infrastructure/territory; if you want to build bigger ships, you need more resources and can't keep as "quiet".

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10,000 Energy?  That's 25% higher than the point where the Impulse Reaction Emitter hits the MAX CAP of the damage multiplier.
The IRE is significant but balance-wise we don't adjust the energy system to fit the IRE-mechanic (which is just a lone bonus ship, and now a champion module line), we adjust the IRE-mechanic to fit the energy system.

That said, is there a problem with the IRE getting max multiplier vs starships?  They're bigger stuff.

As for those various AI energy costs you mentioned (guardians, motherships, etc), those could use adjustment but it's more of a "typo" problem than anything to do with the balance of the energy system.  Sure, the mothership should have like a million energy cost, it's just an oversight of mine that these things don't reflect their relative size.  Mostly it's that way right now because those costs are irrelevant except where the IRE mechanic is involved, and as you pointed out the IRE's multiplier caps out pretty low so once an AI-only (i.e. non-reclaimable) ship is that high it is completely irrelevant how much higher its e-value is.

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Basically, the energy changes made brownouts a more likely, and more dangerous.
Which was one of my explicitly stated goals for the changes.  Ironically, I don't know that it actually happened, but I'm glad at least some people think so ;)

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So people developed workarounds (CHEESE!) already
What workarounds, and how are they cheesy?

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but that's just more micro - exactly what this was supposed to avoid.
Ideally it should avoid unnecessary micro in general, yes, but the primary goal was to make sure that the remaining micro was actual in-game decisions, instead of "how much wall-clock-time do I want to spend pausing and wrestling with the interface to twiddle low-power-mode?"

I think it's pretty clear the overall level of micro is substantially reduced, and certainly the purely-wall-clock-time part of it.

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At the same time that the energy changes were forcing expansion, while increasing AIP effect and decreasing reducers, they made losing a system more painful, which forced people to consolidate to fewer ingress points - at the same time that changes were being made to attempt to force people to spread out and allow more ingress points.
With a few exceptions I don't make changes to "force" one choice or another.  I try to make changes that make all the choices meaningful.  Multi-ingress vs Single-ingress is a very important decision in AIW, and I've tried to make multi-ingress more viable so the decision isn't automatic.  But the need to address other issues with the game has pushed against Multi-ingress's viability in other ways.  That kind of design tension is inherent in a complex game like this, and is an indication of "problems" in the sense of "if you go to math class, you get math problems" rather than "brokenness" problems.

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Sorry for the minor rant
I don't mind, if we don't get criticism the game doesn't get better.  At the same time I need you to hold yourself internally accountable so that your feedback best reflects what is actually true and necessary.  Don't stand your ground just because it's the ground you've stood, be prepared to recognize when you're wrong on a particular point (or a more general issue).

Are some of the energy costs in need of adjustment?  Sure.  Starships might do better at 9k instead of 10k.  Fortresses might do with a 10k-reduction to e cost.  MkII and MkIII fortresses almost certainly would do better if brought into linearization with the MkI stats (without increasing e-cost, as per normal).  The AI-only ship e-costs are a mess (but have minimal impact on the game, thus not being dealt with yet).

But is the system broken?  Emphatically, no.  It's doing it's job better than I expected, actually, given the period of refinement it's seen thus far.

That said, please keep the feedback coming (while considering the feedback you yourself receive), it's necessary for finding the steps forward to making it better.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Volatar

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Re: Energy Managament and Fortresses
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2012, 11:55:09 am »
the IRE-mechanic (which is just a lone bonus ship, and now a champion module line),

This is obviously a bug, so I posted it on Mantis.  :P

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Energy Managament and Fortresses
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2012, 12:50:38 pm »
the IRE-mechanic (which is just a lone bonus ship, and now a champion module line),

This is obviously a bug, so I posted it on Mantis.  :P

+1

Offline rabican

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Re: Energy Managament and Fortresses
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2012, 01:23:11 pm »
IRE guardian would be nice , i think AI is generally bit lacking in defense versus Big Things. Ion cannons and eyes don't really do anything vs them ,and those are pretty ibg part of AI defense.

Offline Volatar

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Re: Energy Managament and Fortresses
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2012, 01:34:44 pm »
IRE guardian would be nice , i think AI is generally bit lacking in defense versus Big Things. Ion cannons and eyes don't really do anything vs them ,and those are pretty ibg part of AI defense.

Actually that sounds even better. The AI does indeed need more tools against the big player tools of mass destruction. Mantis'd that as well.

Offline Nodor

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Re: Energy Managament and Fortresses
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2012, 01:42:58 pm »

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Basically, the energy changes made brownouts a more likely, and more dangerous.
Which was one of my explicitly stated goals for the changes.  Ironically, I don't know that it actually happened, but I'm glad at least some people think so ;)

From my experience, it did.    Energy is a strategic issue/challenge now.     In my current game, I'm paying 100 AIP to "secure" a ZPG so I have enough "extra capacity" so I can avoid not having shields when the Heroic AI's champions pop in to visit.   And since a ZPG is a target, I need a multi-planet buffer.

This strategy is a direct result of a number of losses. 

As a note, I was one of the people that would build out all of the starships available before taking planet 2.


Offline Eternaly_Lost

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Re: Energy Managament and Fortresses
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2012, 03:18:13 pm »
IRE guardian would be nice , i think AI is generally bit lacking in defense versus Big Things. Ion cannons and eyes don't really do anything vs them ,and those are pretty ibg part of AI defense.

Actually that sounds even better. The AI does indeed need more tools against the big player tools of mass destruction. Mantis'd that as well.

Personally, I don't think so.

The AI in my mind is more balanced at throwing a lot of weak little things at you, rather then(save for certain cases) throwing a few very strong things at you. Plus, a lot of those big tools are one shot, once they die, they are gone.

Granted, you an play it so that you get a lot of strong things thrown at you (I see exo-waves with several hunter-killers mk5 quite often) But normally ones of those would just kill someone, or so I heard.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Energy Managament and Fortresses
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2012, 11:11:40 pm »
Whoof, lot to reply to, I see.

First, yes, I was overly-emphatic in my last post.  The current energy system is not broken.  I do find Energy in single-Homeworld games to be a constant source of frustration until the end-game.  My solution to this is to play almost exclusively multi-HW games, 2 or 3 usually.  Part of this is that I play a fairly defensive style, so I build lots of turrets, FFs, fortresses, and other defensive things (like trader goodies), and would rely heavily on Raid Starships (unlocking I-III frequently).
An additional source of frustration is that this past weekend I spent time trying to work out a solid spreadsheet on IRE and Polarizer effectiveness vs all fleetships, starships, AI ships, etc.  The disjoint between what appeared to have been an energy system (50 to 8000 energy use basically covering the range of low-to-high, with a few extreme items at 10,000 or 20,000 energy use) and the current energy usage points for Starships and Fortresses seemed rather glaring.



Next, Matter Converter cheese.  My standard cheese is to build a clump of Matter Converters on a 'safe' world or two somewhere, but stop them at 99% built.  That way, they can come online almost instantly, but they aren't consuming resources until I need them.  Then, as soon as I no longer need the extra energy, I can scrap all the completed ones - because I still have a backlog of 99% complete ones should I need more energy again in a hurry.  It is quite effective, although it requires micro.  Mostly possible because Matter Converters have no real build costs.



I personally don't play all-starship games very often.  I prefer watching two huge fleets grind each other to bits over microing a few Starships for maximum effect.  However, I do it occasionally, just 'cuz, and I find the current harsh limits on Starships to be another source of frustration.
Using the starting K on starships gives up to 39 ships, for 390,000 energy usage.
Using the starting K on fleetships (to unlock the triangle+bonus to Mk II) gives 100,000 + bonus.  A typical bonus ship Mk I + MK II cap might be 12,000 Energy, up to the extreme of Parasites at 55,000 Energy for Mk I and Mk II caps.  That's a total usage of about 150,000 Energy, less than half of the Starship usage.
Now, in cap HP and cap DPS, you get about twice as much of both DPS and HP in the starships - for about 7-10 times the resource cost and *much* longer build times.
I would expect the two comparisions to match up more evenly, which again causes some frustration when they don't.



ZPGs are not something I consider a real solution to energy problems, because a) randomness of spawns (it's easy to have a galaxy with 0-1), b) build costs (for Trader acquired), and most importantly c) 100,000 HP.  FF immune AI ships have always been an annoyance, but with Plasma Siege Starships doing FF splash, a mere 4 shots from a Mk I will kill any and all ZPGs you have, no matter how many FFs they may be protected by.



Fortresses have been held out several times as an example of something that is very cheap for Knowledge, but expensive in time and resources.
Just for a comparison, Heavy Bomber Starships.
Fortresses cost 3,000K, BSS Mk IIs are 2500K.
Fortresses are 800,000 DPS and 20,000,000 HP each, for a cap total of 4,000,000 DPS and 100,000,000 HP.
BSS are 70,000/140,000 DPS and 7,000,000/14,000,000 HP at a cap of 4, for a total of 840,000 DPS and 84,000,000 HP.
Fortresses are 4,500,000 M+C and 450,000 Energy (upkeep of 900 M+C/sec).
BSS are about 1,100,000 M+C and 80,000 Energy (upkeep of 160 M+C/sec).

Overall, Heavy Bomber Starships Mk I and II are about 20% of a cap of Mk I Fortresses in all categories - except (notably) HP, where they are fully 80% as tough.
However, BSSs are highly mobile and warp capable, meaning they are both an offensive and defensive unit.  Add on to that the fact that the energy costs for Fortresses are almost 6 times as high as BSSs... Fortresses begin to look not-so-good as a long-term investment.  It takes about 20 minutes of operating the Fortresses to spend enough additional M+C on energy to build an entire extra cap of BSS Mk I and IIs (1,100,000 resources / 740/sec).



The last frustration I have with the current energy system is, as I mentioned, that the recent changes to the game seem to be encouraging opposite human behaviors (and punishing those who do not follow).  While 'force' is too strong a word, 'encourage' certainly fits.  A few examples:
Energy is far more efficient when spread out.  But at the same time, AIP was made much more painful for waves and reinforcements, which punishes the player for expanding.
Brownouts are far more dangerous, which encourages players to reduce the number of threatened planets.  But then anti-whipping boy measures were added.
Starship Knowledge costs were reduced, and more lines added (Zenith and Spire).  But Starship Energy costs were raised to the point where it is prohibitive to built even the freebies you start the game with.


I'd love to see a major Energy rebalance (widespread tweak?) resulting in a larger spread of costs, not the least of which would be to break things out of the 'trivial', 'expensive', "Arm & Leg & then some' categories.  I just don't expect one anytime soon.  But a few tweaks to either energy generation or high-end costs I think is in order.


I also just discovered that the forum webpage will allow you to resize the response text window.  How did I miss this all this time?  So much easier to write big, huge messages now!

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Energy Managament and Fortresses
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2012, 11:40:47 pm »
I'd love to see a major Energy rebalance (widespread tweak?) resulting in a larger spread of costs, not the least of which would be to break things out of the 'trivial', 'expensive', "Arm & Leg & then some' categories.  I just don't expect one anytime soon.  But a few tweaks to either energy generation or high-end costs I think is in order.

Agreed on this. This was needed even before the energy system change. The energy system change just made this need more obvious as you can no longer "micro away" your excess for cheap.

Also, lol at your "build to 99%" strategy to minimize the impact of the in-game time costs. Very clever. :D

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I also just discovered that the forum webpage will allow you to resize the response text window.  How did I miss this all this time?  So much easier to write big, huge messages now!

Wow, how did I miss that too? Maybe because the "triangle drag handle thing" is smaller than most other GUIs I have seen that employ that visual queue.

Offline Volatar

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Re: Energy Managament and Fortresses
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2012, 10:28:25 am »
Wow, how did I miss that too? Maybe because the "triangle drag handle thing" is smaller than most other GUIs I have seen that employ that visual queue.

If you use Chrome, it provides the ability to do that (in the lower right corner) in two directions in most any large textbox on any web page. (It actually overrides the one built into this forum software.)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Energy Managament and Fortresses
« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2012, 01:59:53 pm »
Diazo, why do we keep continually trying to balance the game around difficulty 10, when difficulty 10 is supposed to be unfair?

There is a logical contradiction in the changes you continually try to make to the "impossible" difficulty, then a few weeks later complain that it's too easy.

If Fortresses are underpowered (because of their energy cost) on difficulty 9, then that's a concern.  But why do I get the feeling that these threads keep coming up as a result of something not being viable on a difficulty in which no strategy is technically supposed to be viable?

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Offline Diazo

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Re: Energy Managament and Fortresses
« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2012, 03:02:04 pm »
Erm, the specific game that prompted this is a difficulty 9.0/9.0 game. I did this because I am aware that  diff 10/10 games are not really valid for feedback purposes.

However, when I post issues I try to take difficulty out of the picture and post the issue as generally as possible. (Except if it is specifically about high-level difficulty balance). I think I have a decent history of this but other people would actually have to tell me if that is true.

Note that this does not include my AARs however. I have a tendency to vent when the AI surprises me with something in those and so I can see why I would come across as complainy there.

This thread about energy, and specifically fortresses energy, applies to all difficulty levels, it is just a case that at the higher difficulty level you need more defenses so it is more apparent.

From what I see in the threat, I am getting enough agreement that I think there should be further discussion on this as it sounds like some people agree with me.

However, there are several people who are disagreeing with me in this thread as well, so maybe no changes will come out of this.

I will admit to spectacularly bad timing as well. I thought it was 2 weeks to 6.0, not the 2 days it actually was when I started the thread.

Having said that, I am getting some serious playtime in today so I'm hoping to have some more real-game numbers to throw at this thread later.


Actually, I just checked my post history and I'm not sure where you are coming from Wing. Not counting my AAR posts and wiki stuff, recently I've only started threads on Energy (this thread), the multi-ingress thing, the military command stations after mini-forts were added (which was me compiling discussion on that all together, not me starting a new topic), and home command stations spawning too close to hostile warp points (IE: within plasma siege range). All of those apply across all difficulty levels in my opinion.

I have not checked my recent individual posts, but I do try to keep the diff 10 stuff out of it (except my AARs) and I feel like I do a decent job of that.

Anyways, back to the energy discussion. Look for some more numbers on this from me later this evening.

D.