Author Topic: Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy  (Read 7551 times)

Offline Haagenti

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Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy
« on: August 23, 2009, 12:09:36 pm »
I'm playing a 7.6 against Vicious Raider and Spymaster with 1.014R.

I'm playing the ever voracious parasites. Energy used to be my main constraint. Due to the "new" (for me) Energy III and the heavily enhanced resources, I can run my entire empire off 4 planets with ease. Three might work as well, with a little effort, though with the new mercenary docks, I may leave it at 4.

Strategy:
- Ensure that warpholes going deeper into my empire are covered by forcefields so raids can't get at my home planet
- Neuter all adjacent planets (kill everything except their orbital) and leave a spy to monitor their regrowth. If they grow above 500, reneuter them.
- Leave one warpgate on one adjacent planet. Build all my turrets around that warpgate and add 300 ships, since that is where the raiders will come from.

Raids are now under control, cross-planet raids are not going to happen for a long time since they get neutered. The enemy grows too slow to be dangerous.

It's similar to the strategy at http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,880.0.html.

The AI never gets going, due to a low AI and a low "not-controlled by AI" planet count. I can do this because I get an enormous amount of metal/crystal/energy from only a few planets. Either the resource model needs adaptation, or the AI needs to get much more aggressive at low AI progression / low "not-controlled by AI" planet counts.

Right now, once you can stop normal raids, the game is won.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 12:17:38 pm by Haagenti »
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Offline x4000

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Re: Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2009, 12:22:59 pm »
This is an interesting point.  Here's what I'm currently thinking: what if individual harvester points only gave out resources for a period of time, say 1-2 hours?  Then you are forced to keep expanding (over a long game) in order to keep your super-high resource rates.  Otherwise, when you pass a certain point you will just be getting resources from your command stations -- which, in the new economy, is a lot but not enough.

I'm also thinking about buffing cross-planet raids up even more.  I think that will help.


And... I'm starting to think that the AI needs to get reinforcements to its planets at a fixed rate regardless of how many planets the players take (the AI progress still matters, but not the number of planets the players control in that model).  Then there is a penalty for sitting still, because the AI will build up huge forces around you, as well as (with some new logic) make its core and home planets stronger.  Thus there's then some incentive to have a wider perimeter, whereas right now all the incentives are to stay small.

Whew, that's a lot of stuff actually.  But I think that those combined could make for (once again) a really different game and add to the strategy of it.  More competing opposing needs and pressures, and all that.
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Offline Fiskbit

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Re: Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2009, 12:30:20 pm »
What you could do is limit the amount of resources in each point rather than have it be time-based, and exo-shields would use some of that to run rather than just making the harvester produce at a reduced rate.

Although I also think that the resource harvest rate is a little high and am not sure about limiting it in this way. I'll play the game a bit more to see what I think of the balance in single player and then give you more input. My reaction is much like Admiral's: it's easy at this point to hit resource caps and have plenty of energy.


Edit: I should add that I think the mercenary ships idea is a good one and look forward to using it, but I view those ships as more of an extra and not a solution to the problem of having that abundance of resources in the first place.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 12:33:13 pm by Fiskbit »
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Offline Revenantus

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Re: Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2009, 01:00:21 pm »
I'd support resource points only have a finite amount of resources, it would certainly make the player more conservative with their ships.

However, this could make MkII and III command stations almost essential, so it might be worth reducing/removing their knowledge costs and/or making them more expensive to construct.

Offline x4000

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Re: Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2009, 02:22:29 pm »
What you could do is limit the amount of resources in each point rather than have it be time-based, and exo-shields would use some of that to run rather than just making the harvester produce at a reduced rate.

That's what I meant, as far as the time-based thing goes.  I was just really talking about the volume of resources in there, since you can't draw down resources any faster than the main harvester rate.  For the exo-shields, I don't see any reason to make it more complicated.

Although I also think that the resource harvest rate is a little high and am not sure about limiting it in this way. I'll play the game a bit more to see what I think of the balance in single player and then give you more input. My reaction is much like Admiral's: it's easy at this point to hit resource caps and have plenty of energy.

Well, fair enough.  With the time limitation on the resources, plus the mercenaries, though, I think this will basically be resolved for the most part.

Edit: I should add that I think the mercenary ships idea is a good one and look forward to using it, but I view those ships as more of an extra and not a solution to the problem of having that abundance of resources in the first place.

I disagree -- the problem with the extra resources is not having anything to do with them.  As long as you are not at your ship cap, resources are not that overdone.  Once you are at your ship cap, they fly sky high.  Now with mercenaries to round out your fleets, there's no good reason for ever having sky-high resources.

Usually smallish changes like this have a pretty huge effect on gameplay, so let's wait until some of the other changes in before really passing judgment there.  I think the mercenaries will solve most of this except the imperative to expand, which the limitations on resources will solve.

A few things I've been thinking about in relation to this (and Rev, this might help with your comment about the command stations):

Right now, the knowledge you can get is limited per planet.  I think that might also make sense for metal/crystal.  Basically, the amount of available metal/crystal would be dependent on how many harvest points there are, but it would be drawn down as a single total per planet rather than per harvest point.  So if one harvest point keeps getting destroyed, you can keep drawing down the total from others, just more slowly.  AND, this would mean that the command stations themselves would also draw the resources down, so using the higher-level command stations would give you more resources but would deplete the planet's amount more quickly. 

In the case of the home planets for players and AIs, those would have an extra-large amount of resources on them, perhaps enough to sustain everything on them for around 10-15 hours or so (assuming full burn rate the entire time).  Thus it will really be a long time before you are running out of resources there, but it will happen eventually.  Thus there is always the imperative to move forward and not waste your resources with tactics like entrenching and building a zillion overpriced mercenaries, etc.

With this model, I think I will also do away with the resource caps completely.  If you want to amass 500 million metal, go for it.  This basically makes it all more similar to knowledge.  Otherwise the complexity of managing the economy and wondering if you are wasting finite resources is just too much.  Also, I think that having the metal/crystal producer efficiency reductions would also be a thing of the past, since that too would be much too complex to try to manage in practice.

This has a few benefits, mostly simplicity and ease of management (and ease of review from the galaxy map), plus consistency with the knowledge model.  But it also has the benefit of making planets as a whole only useful for a while, and not making the higher-level command stations so overpowered.  In general, I think this would simplify a lot of the economy (no efficiency reductions, no way to make yourself permanently overpowered resource-wise with higher command stations), but at the same time increasing the longer-term strategic challenges.  AI War is ideally placed for this sort of thing, due to the fact that it has such hugely longer games than any other.


My other idea is regarding the reinforcement levels.  This is something that I think I will handle with a new special ship that the AI builds over time, and which the players can destroy to limit the AI through.  I have not yet thought that all the way through, but I think it has a lot of potential to be very fun with letting players manage the amount of reinforcements the AI gets through a mechanic along the lines of datacenters.
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Offline liq3

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Re: Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2009, 03:26:15 pm »
I think I like that idea about limited economy. You could even have a few options at the game start to adjust it (make it easier or harder).

I dunno what perfect amounts would be, but I imagine a planet should last about 5 hours maxed out. That'd be 216,000 metal or crystal per node. When you have stuff like Spires that cost 100k crystal, it's not much.

I do like the sounds of this new economic model now, this it adds to strategic choice. Now planets with higher amounts of resources become even more important, and I could see myself (and others) taking planets late game simply for their resources. It'd also indirectly push the AI Progress up, since we'd need more planets, which would make us need to spend more, making us need more planets. :D


Offline Echo35

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Re: Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2009, 03:49:54 pm »
What about pulling a Total Annihilation thing here and making the resource harvesters diminish in efficiency over time? Say, every few hours or so the amount of material per second that the player recieves is lowered by some percentage? That way, players could get a nice start with high resources and the mercenary ships, and as time went on, they would be forced to expand to keep up with their economic demands.

Offline liq3

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Re: Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2009, 04:45:32 pm »
What about pulling a Total Annihilation thing here and making the resource harvesters diminish in efficiency over time? Say, every few hours or so the amount of material per second that the player recieves is lowered by some percentage? That way, players could get a nice start with high resources and the mercenary ships, and as time went on, they would be forced to expand to keep up with their economic demands.
I'd rather the resources just stop completely personally. Or maybe do it the way Starcraft did with gas, which is similar. Basically are a certain amount mined (usually 5000), the rate went from 8p/s to 2p/s, but was otherwise infinite.

Offline Darkreaver1980

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Re: Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2009, 05:10:04 pm »
Please build in a option to remove any resources limitations if you want to build that in. Because i wouldnt play AI war if the harvester would have a limit

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2009, 05:25:19 pm »
I am not really for resource limits - that would cause dead-end situations really fast - please guys, if its too easy for you, ramp up difficulty or give the AI a boost. The game as is is already pretty hard, even without resource limits

So, i am against limited resources, COMPLETELY , i always disable that in Space Empires 5 because it makes NO SENSE that i see resources of a planet diminish in a playtime of 24hrs or so - or even 20 or 60 years.

Decreasing resources would be a dead-sentence if you hit a string of IV worlds early on or loose a fleet because of a bad raid.

By the way - i am playing AI 5 at 150% boost now and i can not confirm any of your tactics, on a 80 planet map after 5 hours i am beyond 70k enemy ships, even with neutering anything in a 5 hop radius early on, the planets i couldn't neuter are fully stocked with ships
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 05:35:57 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline Warnstaff

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Re: Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2009, 07:22:59 pm »
Please build in a option to remove any resources limitations if you want to build that in. Because i wouldnt play AI war if the harvester would have a limit
This I believe would be the best option for resource limits as it will please both mindsets without detracting from the current or proposed models.

Offline Admiral

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Re: Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2009, 09:01:28 pm »
I'd support resource points only have a finite amount of resources, it would certainly make the player more conservative with their ships.

I wouldn't really support this as this is a big, huge change.

I could support a varying efficiency of resource extraction per resource point, though. I suggest a formula such as this:

A = starting resource production, probably 100%
B = final resource production, let's not say 0%, let's say 33%

T1 = Time when resource production starts (harvester built, cumulative across destroyed harvesters)
T2 = Time when resource production begins to decline
T3 = Time when resource production hits final production

T1 -> T2: Resource production at rate A
T2 -> T3: Logarithmic reduction in resource production from A -> B
T3 -> infinity: Resource production at rate B

If you want, you can make different resource points better or worse by having different B's; home points might always be 100%, for example, but planets with lots of resources might have differing B's, or even differing (T2-T1)s.

If you really want to be interesting, add a sinusoidal (or other regular) modification to each one's resource production output, allowing the output to fluctuate (above and below) by another percentage. This would cause resource production to vary (although still equal the proper amount integrated over time), but your ability to count on output at any given exact second would differ.

I would definitely make this a game startup option. There are no other RTSes that I can think of off the top of my head like this. Dune II (the original from what, 1993?) had exhaustible spice fields, but they always regrew elsewhere.

The big problem is, in a game of attrition, the AI will always win.

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Offline Echo35

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Re: Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2009, 09:57:44 pm »
I'd rather the resources just stop completely personally. Or maybe do it the way Starcraft did with gas, which is similar. Basically are a certain amount mined (usually 5000), the rate went from 8p/s to 2p/s, but was otherwise infinite.

Thats kinda what I meant. Lowering the rate I would be ok with, but I am completely against a finite limit. The AI is rough enough as is, I can't imagine the possibility of being beaten back so hard I couldn't retaliate.

Offline liq3

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Re: Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2009, 10:33:47 pm »
I'd rather the resources just stop completely personally. Or maybe do it the way Starcraft did with gas, which is similar. Basically are a certain amount mined (usually 5000), the rate went from 8p/s to 2p/s, but was otherwise infinite.

Thats kinda what I meant. Lowering the rate I would be ok with, but I am completely against a finite limit. The AI is rough enough as is, I can't imagine the possibility of being beaten back so hard I couldn't retaliate.
Well one way to deal with that problem is have the home planet last a ridiculously long time (maybe 20 hours?), or even just infinite, while having any captured planets (except maybe the enemy homeworlds ;)) being finite. I'd probably go with infinite homeworld myself, so that way you always have a base of about 120-170 crystal and metal per second to work with, and capturing planets just gives you a large boost. It still forces people to play aggressively, but you'll never get stuck into a "I have no resources left" state.

Also, it's already very possible to reach a stalemate, where the AI can't kill you with waves or CPAs, but they have too many ships for you to push into their territory and take them out (or you don't have enough ships to spare on offense). Thing about this game, is a stalemate is basically a loss, since the AI progress keeps slowly raising, so eventually you'll be getting by a CPA every few minutes (or at least I hope it works that way).

Offline x4000

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Re: Energy III and enhanced resources are making life too easy
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2009, 10:46:03 pm »
Okay okay, so this is not a hit.  I think there are enough arguments to just stay with the current model.  I'm going to have to think of this some more and come up with another reason to expand, but it also seems clear that the economy needs to just be nerfed a bit in general, then.
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