Author Topic: Energy Collector Health  (Read 10003 times)

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Energy Collector Health
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2012, 01:38:52 pm »
Actually, um, ow.

I just did the math from patch 5.036. On diff 10 a wave at AIP 30 is just over 3 times the size of a wave at AIP 10.

And then because I play single HW, it gets the "attacking a chokepoint" bonus against me aswell.

Ow ow ow.

I apparently need to enable wave logging next game and take a look, have not gone into detail on it like others have.

D.
Thankfully, the "attacking a chokepoint" bonus is "phased in" over the course of an hour or two. For the first wave, it shouldn't get any bonus based on the number of "in points"

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Energy Collector Health
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2012, 01:40:45 pm »
I just did the math from patch 5.036. On diff 10 a wave at AIP 30 is just over 3 times the size of a wave at AIP 10.
30 AIP has caused 3x the numbers as 10 AIP for a long time, with the exception of the "wave size floor" (especially on non-schizo where you always get at least a cap's worth of ships).

Now it gets slightly more than 3x due to the exponential component, but it's only barely operative at that magnitude.

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And then because I play single HW, it gets the "attacking a chokepoint" bonus against me aswell.
That doesn't fully phase in until (iirc) 2 hours into the game, but by 60 minutes in you're soaking half the effect, yea.  Getting up to 2 entry planets is a good idea as that way you at least aren't eligible for the "beyond max time" waves that are possible with 1 entry planet.

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I apparently need to enable wave logging next game and take a look, have not gone into detail on it like others have.
It's definitely a tool to use if you're curious about the details :)
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Energy Collector Health
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2012, 02:24:18 pm »
I don't think I've seen anyone win a 10/10 without Schizo waves.

Offline Diazo

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Re: Energy Collector Health
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2012, 02:25:37 pm »
And then because I play single HW, it gets the "attacking a chokepoint" bonus against me aswell.
That doesn't fully phase in until (iirc) 2 hours into the game, but by 60 minutes in you're soaking half the effect, yea.  Getting up to 2 entry planets is a good idea as that way you at least aren't eligible for the "beyond max time" waves that are possible with 1 entry planet.

Heh.

The strategy that has more or less been working for me is to soak the waves with my HW and use Jammer Stations out and about in the galaxy.

Having seen this now I realize that I've been losing a lot of games at the 2 hour mark (give or take 30 minutes) recently.

I may need to rethink this.

D.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Energy Collector Health
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2012, 05:00:37 pm »
I don't think I've seen anyone win a 10/10 without Schizo waves.
Yea, that's why I recently made Schizo only apply to 75% of the waves: the modifier isn't there to make the game easier, just different (indeed, theoretically harder).  It's interesting that 100%-schizo waves actually make the defensive experiences substantially more homogenous across the course of a game because there's basically only one "flavor": all of it together.

It does make it harder in some ways in that you can't really hard-counter a schizo-wave the way you can hard-counter a wave that's 100% (minus the lead fighters and starships) polycrystal, but on the other hand it generally gives all your turrets and defenders something on-bonus to shoot at, and so on.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Energy Collector Health
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2012, 05:33:32 pm »
Hard countering is over rated anyway. If the enemy wave is big enough to pose a serious threat, your whole force (including the hard counters) are going to be there. If it's not, then who cares? A wave of 1,000 bombers is much more deadly than a wave of 1,500 random ships which may include minipods and laser gatlings. Even if you bring all the right counters to polycrystal they're still going to be completely immune to Fortresses and eat your shields in seconds. Some ships are just better in waves (and in general) than others. Mixing in the bad ones makes it easier.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 05:35:52 pm by Wingflier »
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Energy Collector Health
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2012, 10:47:59 pm »
This may need to go in its own thread, but here are my thoughts on the whole "bombers and the like are disproportionally more dangerous on the offense" thing.
There are two major things that are skewing the usefulness of bombers, and neither of which are really due to the bomber unit itself.

First off, there is the disproportionally high number of units with heavy or ultra heavy armor. Sadly, this one will not be easy to fix.

The second thing is that there is only one mechanic that can protect structures (except for harvesters and their exo-shield thing), forcefields. Guess what, all the forcefield units have a hull type that bombers have a bonus against!
This seems a bit easier to fix, or at least "band-aid".

Here is my idea:
-Give one of the standard forcefields (the regular or the hardened, I'm not sure which yet, though I am leaning towards armored) a new hull type that the bomber does NOT get a bonus to. (I'm thinking a hull type that the standard fighter gets a bonus against, as if you have it a hull type that missile frigates have a bonus against, you can make your forcefield stupidly durable when combining it with a counter-missile turret)
-Let the AI get their own version of the armored forcefield (which also gives the nice side affect of making humans care about armor more, and buffs the polarizer in human hands)

This should make players fear mixed waves a bit more, and give us humans more reason to use mixed fleets too.

Any thoughts? Does this need to go in its own thread?


EDIT1: A better "fix" would to be to introduce a new protecting mechanic that is not countered by bombers. (That exo-forcefield for command stations has been proposed before, that might work), but that would be a new unit, and thus would be more work.

EDIT2: It may also be helpful to give one of the bonuses of the bomber to some other triangle ship, though that would require some serious analysis of balance repercussions.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 10:51:29 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Energy Collector Health
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2012, 11:36:15 pm »
The triangle, and therefore the game focuses around the Bomber.  A Fighter's sole reason for existing is to counter the Bomber.  If Bombers didn't exist, there would never be any reason to upgrade Fighters past MKII (it's practically not even worth it as it is).

Frigates have the advantage of having a long range, and therefore being good for defensive/escort purposes, even if their bonuses are pretty lackluster in most cases (they counter Fighters lol).  Also area of effect immunity is a huge bonus which makes them a lot more durable than even bombers in many situations.

Balance-wise, it would work the best if Fighters were the focus of the triangle.  Bombers would exist to destroy what Fighters couldn't, i.e. extremely high armor targets which would typically tear fighters apart, like in any self-respecting Science Fiction scenario.  Frigates would be heavily armored, long-range, anti-Fighter escort ships, designed to protect your fleet from the ever-present threat. 

If Fighters were the focus of the Triangle, micromanaging them carefully could inflict grievous damage upon your enemy, which discourages blobbing and gives them a unique, important feel.  Bombers would still be good against high armor targets like shields, fortresses, frigates, golems, and some guardians, but in terms of average DPS (against non-armored targets), they would be completely inferior to fighters.  In this way, they would still be extremely IMPORTANT, but not ridiculously overpowered.

A Frigate's sole reason for existence would be similar to the Fighter's now - to destroy the core Triangle ship (Fighters).  However, Frigates are much more well equipped than Fighters for this role, because of their long range and inherent defensive power.

I feel like this balancing method makes each Triangle ship's role much more important and defined.  With Fighters becoming the focus of the triangle, they can be micromanaged like a scalpel upon your enemy, instead of a rather ineffective, cheap cannon fodder than you hurl at your enemies then quickly replace.  Bombers counter extremely high-priority AI elements (force fields, fortresses, golems, hybrids, etc.) and the counter to the dreaded Fighters - Frigates.  Frigates keep the fighters at bay while still being an important, long-range defensive powerhouse (in my iteration, Frigates would shoot salvos, not just single shots).

The current balancing method just makes the triangle so homogenized, and makes Bombers the specialized high-priority target killers, but also the best against most targets in general.  It just makes "blobbing" the optimal strategy.

« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 11:53:57 pm by Wingflier »
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Energy Collector Health
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2012, 11:47:59 pm »
Hmm, the current triangle ship "balance layout" I believe is the second version of it. The 3.0 and before days had a different distribution of bonuses, stats, and roles.

Hmm, do you think it is time to start brainstorming a third version? (Like nailing down concrete ideas to implement the general ideas of new balance goals)

If so, that would be an intense enough subject to deserve its own thread.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 12:04:58 am by TechSY730 »

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Energy Collector Health
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2012, 12:02:28 am »
The best thing about making the Fighters the "core" fleet ship, is that you can balance the new Triangle without even using bonuses.

Fighters have high ship cap, low health, no armor, low armor piercing, and huge DPS.  This makes them good against most targets except the highest armor targets, or targets that can kill them en masse from long ranges (like Frigates).  It also makes them good against Bombers.

Frigates have high armor, high range, no armor piercing and shoot salvos.  Their DPS is rather low but it's spread out over several shots, so they are very efficient at taking out the individually weak fighters and other swarmers (melee ships/Neinzul) from a long range.  Fighters also have a hard time against time against these because of the high armor.

Bombers have high health, low armor, and decent DPS, but high armor piercing.  This means they are adept at taking out the high priority AI targets like force fields (which will be given lots of armor), fortresses, golems, some guardians, etc.  Because of their high cost and medium speed, they are very weak to fighters.  Because of their high armor piercing, they are powerful against frigates.

You've just balanced the entire triangle using only armor, speed, ship cap, health, range, and DPS, no bonuses required.

edit:  This whole post assumes that armor becomes a much more important mechanic than it currently is (which we're all hoping for anyway with the armor revamp).
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 12:09:17 am by Wingflier »
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Offline MaxAstro

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Re: Energy Collector Health
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2012, 01:59:13 am »
I am strongly in favor of Wingflier's idea here, and I agree it makes much more sense than the current mechanic.  Bombers are definitely the most useful triangle ship - in fact they are the only triangle ship that you cannot live without.

Barring Space Tanks, it is probably physically impossible to win the game without using bombers, which is not true of fighters or frigates.

Wingflier, you should put up a mantis issue so I can upvote it.  :)  I'd put it up myself but I don't want to steal your thunder.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Energy Collector Health
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2012, 02:11:59 am »
you can balance the new Triangle without even using bonuses

Case and point ;)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Energy Collector Health
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2012, 03:01:29 am »
I am strongly in favor of Wingflier's idea here, and I agree it makes much more sense than the current mechanic.  Bombers are definitely the most useful triangle ship - in fact they are the only triangle ship that you cannot live without.

Barring Space Tanks, it is probably physically impossible to win the game without using bombers, which is not true of fighters or frigates.

Wingflier, you should put up a mantis issue so I can upvote it.  :)  I'd put it up myself but I don't want to steal your thunder.
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=9122

Thanks for the compliments, I put it up on mantis.

As I know Keith and Chris both have their hands full, I realize it may be awhile before this idea can be taken into serious consideration.  However, the community can discuss it and vote about it on Mantis in the mean time.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Energy Collector Health
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2012, 09:47:34 am »
As guessed I don't really have time to consider redoing the triangle, but a couple of questions:

1) What's wrong with the Bomber being the point of the triangle that "points up" to all the juicy stationary/big stuff?  What's wrong with the other two points being largely (though not entirely) defined by their relationship to the first point?  Sure, you could largely capture their purpose by calling them the anti-bomber and the anti-anti-bomber, but what is actually wrong with that? 
- They have plenty of DPS to justify building them.  They're not as much of a priority as the bomber, but that's fine.
- There's less reason to justify spending K on upgrading them but honestly the bonus types should be the ones more interesting for upgrades unless you don't have a bonus type that fulfills one of the core roles.  Space Tanks and (iirc) Zenith Chameleons can be upgraded instead of bombers unless you need multiple bomber types, and there a variety of anti-polycrystal and anti-light bonus types out there too.  If you lack those, then upgrading the triangle type is the fallback.

2) Similarly, what's wrong with most of the juicy stationary/big stuff being Heavy, UltraHeavy, or (almost exclusively forcefields) Structural?  Why would fighters/frigates need to have bonuses against some of those?
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Energy Collector Health
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2012, 10:31:22 am »
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1) What's wrong with the Bomber being the point of the triangle that "points up" to all the juicy stationary/big stuff? Sure, you could largely capture their purpose by calling them the anti-bomber and the anti-anti-bomber, but what is actually wrong with that? 
I'm perfectly fine with the bomber being designed to handle the bigger, more heavily armored stuff.

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What's wrong with the other two points being largely (though not entirely) defined by their relationship to the first point?
Well there are several problems with the "Bomber" being the focus of the Triangle.

1. Fighters lack defensive capability.  While they are cheap and quick to produce, they are also fragile and it takes awhile for them to do their job of destroying bombers.
2. Frigates are much more suited for the "defensive" role.  In other words, I think Frigates should be the counter to the "primary" Triangle ship, as their inherent attributes seem much more suited to that.
3. Making Bombers the "focus" of the Triangle means they are good at too much.  In addition to high-priority targets like Force Field, Fortresses, Raid Engines and Golems, they are also good against Frigates, Guardians, Guard Posts, and a whole slew of other ships and targets as well.  They are disproportionately powerful.

Making the Fighter the "focus" means that Bombers can keep their specialized role (importance for taking out Force Fields, Fortresses, Raid Engines, Golems, etc.), but that in a general combat sense, the player will rely on Fighters to do most of their damage.  Where Fighters take out Bombers in a rather lengthy amount of time now, if they become the focus of the triangle, they can kill them much more quickly, while Bombers, with their low ship cap and long reload time will be practically useless against fighters.  Frigates however, with their long range, heavy armor, and salvo shots, will have a much more defined role of taking out the new dangerous Fighters quickly.

In my vision, the Triangle will become much more unique and specialized.  Where battles between the old ship caps before may have lasted upwards of a 5 minutes, the new mechanics mean that "blobbing" your triangle ships together is a recipe for disaster.  Fighters are extremely strong with high DPS, but a few salvos from a full cap of Frigates can wipe out an entire squad.  This means that to use a Fighter correctly, you must micro them carefully, out of range of AoE and salvo-type threats, or send in Bombers to take them out first.  On the contrary, placing your own Frigates carefully to combat the new "teethed" Fighter will be of utmost importance.

In the new Triangle, sending your fleet into a planet and pressing "FRD" won't work anymore.  The Triangles (and Triangle Counterparts in the form of Guardians, Bonus Ships, or whatever) have become much better at their job of destroying what they are intended to counter.  The new Fighters may have become extremely powerful at close range, but a full cap of Frigates can take them out indefinitely, even if they are being constantly rebuilt.

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- They have plenty of DPS to justify building them.  They're not as much of a priority as the bomber, but that's fine.
Their DPS is fine, but not enough to use them in their own "interception", "raiding", or "assassination" squads.  They really only serve as a force multiplier (similar for Frigates), and I think that's rather boring.  It could be a lot more interesting.

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- There's less reason to justify spending K on upgrading them but honestly the bonus types should be the ones more interesting for upgrades unless you don't have a bonus type that fulfills one of the core roles.  Space Tanks and (iirc) Zenith Chameleons can be upgraded instead of bombers unless you need multiple bomber types, and there a variety of anti-polycrystal and anti-light bonus types out there too.  If you lack those, then upgrading the triangle type is the fallback.
Even the Fighter counterparts such a Laser Gatlings or Tachyon MicroFighters probably aren't worth upgrading when compared to many other bonus ship types.  My point was that even if you NEVER achieved an ARS unlock in your game, you still probably wouldn't upgrade Fighters (and maybe not Frigates either), unless you were against Mad Bomber or something.

note:  Some Fighter-like ships are worth upgrading such as Raptors and Space Planes, but that's only because they have special attributes that make them useful (such as Cloaking, Radar Dampening, massive speed, and auto-kite), not because they belong to the Fighter category or have Fighter bonuses.

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2) Similarly, what's wrong with most of the juicy stationary/big stuff being Heavy, UltraHeavy, or (almost exclusively forcefields) Structural?  Why would fighters/frigates need to have bonuses against some of those?
The problem is not that Fighters/Frigates have no bonuses to Heavy or Structural targets, the problem is that the most important targets in the game have those hull types, which makes the current Fighters/Frigates somewhat lackluster in comparison to Bombers.

I think we should keep the Bomber's utility against the Heavy/UltraHeavy and Structural types, I just think we should do it by giving those types a crap load of armor and making Bombers counter them by design.  It's more intuitive to the player and it makes sense that the bigger something is, the more armor it will have.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 10:33:59 am by Wingflier »
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