Energy Collector Health

[Diazo]

Alright, this is a request for comments before I post a Mantis on this issue.

I would like to see the Energy Collector get a health buff or the same immunity to a plasma siege splash damage that the AIP increasing structures got.

This comes out of my attempts at a game last night where I had a hostile wormhole within a plasma siege's range of my home command station.

It was on Diff 10 so the AI was sending Mark II plasma siege at me and it only takes them 3 shots to kill the energy collector with splash damage at which point I energy blackout and promptly lose.

I then save scummed and even with total micromanagement I was only able to keep my energy collector alive half the time, this was pretty early in the game and I could not alpha the plasma siege right when it came through, and I did not have a prayer when the wave rolled up 2 plasma siege.

Still, even at Mark I it only takes 6 shots for the splash to kill an energy collector.

So, thoughts? I actually like the idea of the AI being able to kill your energy like this, it gives the AI another way to crack your defensive line. The problem is that early game this can't be countered (or did I miss something?). Because the wormhole was in range of my command station I simply could not keep it alive.

I was playing on Diff 10 and all that, which is why I want to see what others think before I mantis this, but this was an impossible game from my perspective simply because the wormhole was in the wrong position.

The same applies to the matter converter, it has the same health.

D.

[Faulty Logic]

Why not move your energy collector somewhere else, like not under the HFF but far enough away from enemy wormholes, maybe under a normal FF?

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, I was going to suggest throwing a mkI ff up on some point as far away from the hostile wormholes as possible (possibly making sure they would have to enter range of your home command on the way) and moving the collector there.  Granted, that involves scrapping the one you have leaving you in an... interesting energy situation until you can get the new one up, but I imagine that could be worked out.

[Draco18s]

It's already on mantis

[Wingflier]

Doesn't seem like a problem to me. The new energy system is obscene. Even if you do somehow run out of energy you can just spam converters. The other game I built 20 of them in a crisis on my homeworld within 30 seconds. Energy is no longer a game mechanic as far as I'm concerned.

[TechSY730]

The new energy collectors could probably do with a bit of a nerf. Not costing resources is more valuable than just the savings on resources alone. After that, I say it would be fine to give them an HP buff.
Not sure about the matter converters. They do have a high m+c/s cost after all, though maybe not enough to imitate the cost of "squeezing" additional energy out of a planet of the old system. Though if the collectors get an HP buff, so should the converters.

[Draco18s]

The new energy collectors could probably do with a nerf. Not costing resources is much more valuable than just the savings on resources alone. After that, I say it would be fine to give them an HP buff.

I think 50k energy should be fine.  When I was playing with a friend the other day I didn't need more than 2 at any given time (plus a third for insurance in case one was destroyed).

Between us we had 8 systems.

[Diazo]

Yea, I was going to suggest throwing a mkI ff up on some point as far away from the hostile wormholes as possible (possibly making sure they would have to enter range of your home command on the way) and moving the collector there.  Granted, that involves scrapping the one you have leaving you in an... interesting energy situation until you can get the new one up, but I imagine that could be worked out.

Could be done I suppose but it would have to be early, I was at -120k energy when my collector got destroyed at that point in the game.

I had no systems conquered yet to move my energy load to so I'd have no defenses up while I did the move. I'll keep that in mind.

Doesn't seem like a problem to me. The new energy system is obscene. Even if you do somehow run out of energy you can just spam converters. The other game I built 20 of them in a crisis on my homeworld within 30 seconds. Energy is no longer a game mechanic as far as I'm concerned.

Multi-HW game? I play single HW and I have to build a converter or two in my home system before I capture my first system to build a second collector. If you nerf the collector's energy output I'd probably be forced to build more converters and at -100 resources that would kill my economy very quickly.

It's already on mantis

Noted.

D.

[Draco18s]

Multi-HW game? I play single HW and I have to build a converter or two in my home system before I capture my first system to build a second collector. If you nerf the collector's energy output I'd probably be forced to build more converters and at -100 resources that would kill my economy very quickly.

If we reduce the power of the energy collector, we can replenish the loss back to the home command station (an amount that is inversely proportional to the number of homeworlds).

[Diazo]

Or reduce the multiplier.

I know the energy collector's output is increased based on how many HW's you have, I think it is a straight multiplier so 2 HW doubles the collector output and 4 HW quadruples it.

Having said that, I do front-load an awful lot of stuff so once I capture the second system my energy issues are usually gone aswell even on single HW.

D.

[Wingflier]

Multi-HW game? I play single HW and I have to build a converter or two in my home system before I capture my first system to build a second collector. If you nerf the collector's energy output I'd probably be forced to build more converters and at -100 resources that would kill my economy very quickly.

Single HW; I'm a "best defense is a good offense" kind of guy.  I take the first planet within 10 minutes, and I'm never below ~75,000 energy before that point.  As far as I know it's only on 10/10 where you have to fortify your base for the first 20-30 minutes before you can even start thinking about expanding.  I would never play that way, I'd rather crank Advanced Hybrids so I pay for my sins later than twiddle my thumbs at any point of the game.

Needless to say, I think having energy problems at the start is a niche situation.

[TechSY730]

When suggested a nerf, I didn't have a huge nerf in mind. Something like bringing it down from 150k energy to 110k or 125k energy, or something of that magnitude. Still enough to be noticeable, but not enough to "cripple" certain playstyles.

[Diazo]

Multi-HW game? I play single HW and I have to build a converter or two in my home system before I capture my first system to build a second collector. If you nerf the collector's energy output I'd probably be forced to build more converters and at -100 resources that would kill my economy very quickly.

Single HW; I'm a "best defense is a good offense" kind of guy.  I take the first planet within 10 minutes, and I'm never below ~75,000 energy before that point.  As far as I know it's only on 10/10 where you have to fortify your base for the first 20-30 minutes before you can even start thinking about expanding.  I would never play that way, I'd rather crank Advanced Hybrids so I pay for my sins later than twiddle my thumbs at any point of the game.

Needless to say, I think having energy problems at the start is a niche situation.

Yes, it was 10/10. That's pretty much all I play these days.

Also probably why it's been forever since I've won a game but I don't feel like it's hopeless so I'm not going to reduce the difficulty.

My last 3 losses (before this plasma siege destroying collectors thing) were due to EMP guardians slipping though. Those are my most hated unit at the moment. (Spirecraft off so no Shieldbearers....)

And first planet within 10 minutes? That's fast (at least to me).

Mind you, I fortify my HW and try to raid a data center before increasing the AIP in any way, it's not unusual for me to hit the 90 minute mark without capturing a second world. Scouting is tough and anything beyond 3 hops out takes quite a while.

And since I play lattice maps I have many worlds in the 3-4 hop range to scout so it takes a long time.

Playstyles, playstyles. Everyone's got their own to say the least.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

And first planet within 10 minutes? That's fast (at least to me).

On normal-ish difficulties I've generally found it's not so much a matter of how long it takes me to take the first planet (assuming it's one of the neighboring mkI planets), it's a matter of how early do I want to bother

Though yea, getting a Data Center raid in first makes a big difference in many ways.

[Diazo]

And first planet within 10 minutes? That's fast (at least to me).

On normal-ish difficulties I've generally found it's not so much a matter of how long it takes me to take the first planet (assuming it's one of the neighboring mkI planets), it's a matter of how early do I want to bother

Though yea, getting a Data Center raid in first makes a big difference in many ways.

True.

Diff 10 is a totally different experience then even dif 9.8.

....

Actually, um, ow.

I just did the math from patch 5.036. On diff 10 a wave at AIP 30 is just over 3 times the size of a wave at AIP 10.

And then because I play single HW, it gets the "attacking a chokepoint" bonus against me aswell.

Ow ow ow.

I apparently need to enable wave logging next game and take a look, have not gone into detail on it like others have.

D.