Dreadnoughts

[Thasero]

Is it just me, or are the recently-added dreadnought starships pretty wimpy?

For a few games I've tried a starship-heavy strategy just to see how it works out, and dreadnoughts just don't seem to add a lot to the mix.  It really boils down to one thing:  They have terrible firepower for expensive capital ships.  Other starships of the same mark deal anywhere from 10 to 50 times as much damage.  The long range is nice, but it only really makes up for the slow speed.

Oddly enough, even though the tooltip description claims the dreadnoughts are strong against force fields and heavy defenses, they don't seem to have any damage bonuses at all against turrets, force fields, or anything except orbital command stations.  (For that matter, all starships have tooltips claiming they're good against forcefields, but only leech/raid starships actually deal notable damage to forcefields.  Bug?)  This means that AI dreadnoughts are reasonably good at pegging your command station in a drive-by shooting, but otherwise I don't see much for them to do.

Am I missing something?

[Velox]

     They do distinguish themselves somewhat in putting the hurt on enemy starships, and the high engine damage can be somewhat nice, but overall I'd agree with all of your points and can't bring myself to like them nearly as much as I want to.

[Echo35]

I only ever use them when I'm planning on attacking structure heavy AI Worlds, since they absolutely wreck turrets and other buildings.

[nullspace]

Five mk1 dreadnoughts cost only 1000 knowledge, so they can add some decent long-range firepower if you have more resources and time than knowledge.  The mk2 and mk3 versions cost 3000 and 5000 even though their stats don't look that much better. 

[Thasero]

Yeah, the knowledge price for mkI dreadnoughts is attractively cheap, it's just that even all 5 available dreadnoughts put together don't add up to very much firepower.  I checked the math, and the entire stack of mkI dreadnoughts only adds up to the firepower of 100 mkI cruisers, and you can't conquer very much of the galaxy with mkI cruisers.  A fleet of mkII dreadnoughts is worth 142 mkI cruisers.  5 mkIIIs have the firepower of 200 mkI cruisers, only twice the damage at 5 times the knowledge cost of the first marque.  The dreadnoughts have somewhat more range and a lot more durability, but compared to a single raid starship, which has the firepower of 336 mkI cruisers and deals big bonus damage to turrets and force fields... and then you can build the other 5 raid starships, and fly them around at high speed... right?  Not to mention leech starships and the parasite ability...

I'd forgotten that dreadnoughts deal bonus damage to starships.  But fighters also deal bonus damage to starships - and 1/3rd of all non-starship classes.  Plus, the only starships that are slow enough to get run down by dreadnoughts are - yep - other dreadnoughts.

[keith.lamothe]

Ok, Dreadnoughts aren't so impressive.  Not all units are going to be as impressive as others since just getting to build that extra amount of firepower is a bonus... but that probably doesn't cover it completely in case of the dreadnought.

So what sort of boost should they get?  Stick with their "role" as is and just pump up the damage?  Give them a bonus against a ship type that their current competitors (raid starships, fighters, etc) don't have?  Give them some sort of special ability to compensate (like temporarily disabling a struck starship for 10 seconds, though that might be too micro-ish or have other big problems)?

Or do raid starships or the other competitors need a nerf to make the dreadnought feel more needed?

Or some combination?

[liq3]

Ok, Dreadnoughts aren't so impressive.  Not all units are going to be as impressive as others since just getting to build that extra amount of firepower is a bonus... but that probably doesn't cover it completely in case of the dreadnought.

So what sort of boost should they get?  Stick with their "role" as is and just pump up the damage?  Give them a bonus against a ship type that their current competitors (raid starships, fighters, etc) don't have?  Give them some sort of special ability to compensate (like temporarily disabling a struck starship for 10 seconds, though that might be too micro-ish or have other big problems)?

Or do raid starships or the other competitors need a nerf to make the dreadnought feel more needed?

Or some combination?

From my experience with them I think they need bonus damage against shields, turrets, basically all non-mobile ships, to make them good at the role of "bombardment". Against mobile ships increasing their engine damage to say 100 so they 1 shot most ships engines would be nice (and also make them somewhat decent at taking down starship engines - currently they'll kill the actual starship before it's engines die). I also think they II and III varients need a straight damage boost to match their knowledge cost.

[Thasero]

I like the idea of focusing on the engine damage, since long range and engine damage 1) are different from what the other starships do and 2) go well together.  Maybe boost both the number of simultaneous shots and the engine damage, so a dreadnought can disable many targets in one volley.  If dreadnoughts dealt enough damage to be in the same ballpark as other starships but focused on range and engine damage with the trade-off of low speed, that would be pretty neat.

It would also help if dreadnoughts (and flagships/spire ships/zinth ships) really did have a bonus against force fields and heavy defenses like their description says; right now the only always-available methods for efficiently taking down force fields are bombers and raid/leech starships.  It vaguely annoys me that it's possible to replace fighters with other ships that counter cruisers, and possible to replace cruisers with other ships that counter bombers, but you're usually stuck with bombers to take out force fields and the final command stations.  Vaguely   

The way ship cap works means that extra tech is useful even if the ships aren't exactly as good as other ships, but it's pretty dire that you can build the entire line of mkI, mkII, and mkIII dreadnoughts to the cap, put them all together, and still not have as much actual firepower as two raid starships.

[darke]

Random note: Dreadnoughts at 11k range are out ranged by the MkIII missile turrets and all the laser turrets. So you'd still need to micro them a bit to stop them getting sliced-and-diced when doing artillery things anyway, since the AI does seem to like it's lasers.

[RCIX]

I pointed this out a while ago and i think the best option is simply to boost its range some and give it back forcefield damage boosts.

[CogDissident]

I've found dreadnoughts specifically useful when the enemy AI is a "mad bomber". Dreadnauts annihilate bomber starships (which that AI type includes with every raid and in most systems), because bomber starships have significantly less range, and the engine-destruction prevents those starships from doing any damage, and in most cases makes them stop dead outside the dread's range.

[Velox]

     Yes, this is true - bomber starships are the one opponent against which the dreadnought really shines, and I have found them indispensible against that AI type.

[Oewyn]

bomber starships are paper cannons anyways.   My MRLS turrets usually take them out before they get out of range, after destroying all other ships.

[eRe4s3r]

Yes, most of the time Raid -> Leech is the combo to go for, but sometimes you need a quick starship/engine damage dealer and dreadnoughts fill that niche.. that is.. MK1 fills it, i think mk2 and mk3 are vastly underpowered compared to Raid or Leech ships.

I wouldn't unlock mk2/mk3 but 1000 knowledge for a mobile spider turret with much more power is imo pretty viable.

Originally dreadnoughts were suggested to have a powering up directional weapon (super laser or the like) so that they can vastly out range all defenses and 1 shot kill most smaller buildings but mainly all spaceships, maybe thats something MK2 or MK3 should get - Mk1 to slow the ship down, MK2 and MK3 to shredder them, that way their role as starship counter (think arachnid for players) would become more defined, i think..

[liq3]

Originally dreadnoughts were suggested to have a powering up directional weapon (super laser or the like) so that they can vastly out range all defenses and 1 shot kill most smaller buildings but mainly all spaceships, maybe thats something MK2 or MK3 should get - Mk1 to slow the ship down, MK2 and MK3 to shredder them, that way their role as starship counter (think arachnid for players) would become more defined, i think..

That'd be pretty cool, especially if they couldn't fire past force-fields (it'd absorb the shot and take damage).

I'd probably do that they all have that mega-cannon, and they still have that spider like several shot thing with long range. So you got this massively powerful offensive weapon, supported by a long range spider cannon as defense, to keep the smaller ships away. :]