Does AI strength to AIP need adjustment? (aka, is AIP too restrictive?)

[Hearteater]

1) Add a "Gullible AI" checkbox to the AI Mods section of the lobby, which defaults to on (for now).
2) Have strategic reserve always act as if AIP were at least 200, unless the AI is set to Gullible.
3) Have any damage done to a Core Guard Post trigger a +80 increase to the AIP floor, but this only happens once per AI player, and doesn't happen at all if the AI is set to Gullible.
4) Reduce the AIP-on-death of AI Home Command Stations to 15.  No change based on the new toggle.
5) After a week or two, if people like playing with Gullible off, change it so that Gullible defaults to off, but CSGs also default to off, since non-Gullible would achieve largely the same but with less constraint.

Any reason #3 can't be set to death of a Core Guard Post?  I would be annoying to accidentally trigger it with a stray shot, say from a Plasma Siege.  I realize it is a little cheesable in that you could go and take out Core Force Fields first, but honestly if you can leave every Guard Post alive and do that, including the Brutal Picks, more power to you.

For #5, I wouldn't turn CSGs off by default.  They are good for the game in that they give players a good set of objectives to work towards.  The As, Bs and Cs all come with solid goodies for new players.  You also feel like you are making progress by taking each ring out.  Also, I don't feel this new system in any way replaces CSGs.  I hit the first homeworld around 120-150 AIP, and I'm not at the floor anymore normally.  Without CSGs I can hit a homeworld at 20-40 AIP, so I net out better under the new system AND I don't need to deal with any increased AIP until I get to the homeworld.  So early and mid game are trivially easy.  With CSGs the difficulty ramps up.  Since you are making it +80 AIP floor, it won't make a normal CSG game much harder, but it would affect a really cheesy CSG game.

[chemical_art]

For #5, I wouldn't turn CSGs off by default.  They are good for the game in that they give players a good set of objectives to work towards.  The As, Bs and Cs all come with solid goodies for new players.  You also feel like you are making progress by taking each ring out.  Also, I don't feel this new system in any way replaces CSGs.  I hit the first homeworld around 120-150 AIP, and I'm not at the floor anymore normally.  Without CSGs I can hit a homeworld at 20-40 AIP, so I net out better under the new system AND I don't need to deal with any increased AIP until I get to the homeworld.  So early and mid game are trivially easy.  With CSGs the difficulty ramps up.  Since you are making it +80 AIP floor, it won't make a normal CSG game much harder, but it would affect a really cheesy CSG game.

CSG's were enacted to try to counter low AIP games.

The reason I've never liked them is that they use what I consider "hard" handholding.

You HAVE to do X, Y, and Z. No discussion.

That simply doesn't gel for me.

These new changes are "soft" handholding. You don't have to do anything. It allows maximum flexibility in how you tackle the problem, while at the same time discouraging ultra low aip during the end game.

[Faulty Logic]

Call it an "Indifferent" or "Distracted" AI. Gullible just sounds wrong.

[keith.lamothe]

Call it an "Indifferent" or "Distracted" AI. Gullible just sounds wrong.

Ok, I'd say "Distracted", then.  "Gullible" was mostly me making fun of its current behavior.  Which may not be a safe thing.

I would play with these settings, except for one condition, one I'm sure will not be supported.

Strategic reserves are 200 AIP, across the board. At 350 AIP, the AI is gunning you hard, why also make the defense harder? It already passively is due to reinforcements.

Don't go halfway in making strategic reserves a check against low aip games, make them truely a check to that.

I'm not sure what you're asking for; are you suggesting it would be better if the minimum effective AIP for strategic reserves was 350 instead of 200?  Or are you saying that 200 is too high?

Any reason #3 can't be set to death of a Core Guard Post?  I would be annoying to accidentally trigger it with a stray shot, say from a Plasma Siege.  I realize it is a little cheesable in that you could go and take out Core Force Fields first, but honestly if you can leave every Guard Post alive and do that, including the Brutal Picks, more power to you.

Honestly I think even "on damage" is probably a little too late: if you fly in with an enormous fleet and just kill off all the strategic reserves (on both homewords), and _then_ go after the core guard posts... well, depending on which brutal picks are in play, that could be either harder than just biting the bullet (or just plain impossible if we're talking Wrath Lance), or a lot easier.

[chemical_art]

I'm not sure what you're asking for; are you suggesting it would be better if the minimum effective AIP for strategic reserves was 350 instead of 200?  Or are you saying that 200 is too high?

Neither. I am saying strategic reserves strength should be static, locked into their value at AIP 200. In effect, it is a check against Human progress attacking homeworlds that is independent of AIP.

[Cinth]

I'm just looking through all this and thinking... how is this going to play out with that nemesis fleet (what I use instead of the CSG).

[keith.lamothe]

I'm just looking through all this and thinking... how is this going to play out with that nemesis fleet (what I use instead of the CSG).

I don't think it would really impact that at all.

[Cinth]

I'm just looking through all this and thinking... how is this going to play out with that nemesis fleet (what I use instead of the CSG).

I don't think it would really impact that at all.

Not in the strictest sense. Add a maxed out Nemesis fleet and a buffed up (size wise) reserves and you really don't want to hit the HWs early.

[Histidine]

Call it Lazy AI.

[TechSY730]

I'm not sure what you're asking for; are you suggesting it would be better if the minimum effective AIP for strategic reserves was 350 instead of 200?  Or are you saying that 200 is too high?

Neither. I am saying strategic reserves strength should be static, locked into their value at AIP 200. In effect, it is a check against Human progress attacking homeworlds that is independent of AIP.

Having the "effective AIP" be static (at which point it is just its own independent strength constant) doesn't seem right.
But I do see your point of having reinforcements and strategic reserves scaling fully with AIP still causing this "fear" of AIP as before, but merely postponing it to AIP 200 (or whatever value is chosen).

Maybe have a min and a max. Like if AIP < N, then ESAIP = N else if AIP > M, then ESAIP = M, else ESAIP = AIP (where ESAIP is the Effective Strategic reserve AIP to use for the calculation of strategic reserve strength, and N < M). This would still reward players for trying to get into homeworlds without taking too much AIP, but not let homeworld "grindiness" spiral out of control if they opt for higher AIP strats.

Maybe these thresholds should scale with difficulty too...

[chemical_art]

Maybe have a min and a max. Like if AIP < N, then ESAIP = N else if AIP > M, then ESAIP = M, else ESAIP = AIP (where ESAIP is the Effective Strategic reserve AIP to use for the calculation of strategic reserve strength, and N < M). This would still reward players for trying to get into homeworlds without taking too much AIP, but not let homeworld "grindiness" spiral out of control if they opt for higher AIP strats.

Forgive me, but I'm not a programmer, but that hardly seems different then the reserves strength being at least 200, or greater, which ever is higher.

I don't understand how ONE matter of mobile HW defense can't be tied to the almighty AIP. That's the core of the OP in a sense, isn't it? That the AIP dominates everything, so it controls everything? Having reserves tied to a minimal AIP, but also tied to AIP if it is greater then minimal still encourages low AIP games, it is just causes the goal for the AIP to never exceed the new floor.

I hardly consider gaming total strategic progress to hit the 200 AIP floor  (rather then an absolute floor) not that much better, in terms of optimal AI HW destruction.

At least if the reserves stay at 200 AIP you don't feel completely short changed that had maybe 250 AIP compared to 200 AIP, and maybe consider it slightly better if you can somehow overcome the waves and reinforcements. The end game still is the hardest part of the game, in that your defenses and economy are stressed the most, but at least offense doesn't become just as grindy.



Actually, that does remind of something. In ultra low AIP games, your offense is limitted, but your defenses are strongest. Is it so bad that for AI HW assault (endgame) phases, is it terrible that if your AIP isn't floored, your offense becomes stronger but your defenses become more stressed? Is that truly a bad thing?

[TechSY730]

Maybe have a min and a max. Like if AIP < N, then ESAIP = N else if AIP > M, then ESAIP = M, else ESAIP = AIP (where ESAIP is the Effective Strategic reserve AIP to use for the calculation of strategic reserve strength, and N < M). This would still reward players for trying to get into homeworlds without taking too much AIP, but not let homeworld "grindiness" spiral out of control if they opt for higher AIP strats.

Forgive me, but I'm not a programmer, but that hardly seems different then the reserves strength being at least 200, or greater, which ever is higher.

Check the greater thens and less thens. Basically, if means that effective AIP for strategic reserve cannot be anything less than N, or anything more than M. In other words, it clamps it on both sides. (probably should of just said that to begin with, and used min and max instead of N and M)

Finding good values for this min and max is important to keep this from degenerating into just treating it like if it was basically the previously proposed system, even though there is a max.

[_K_]

If the strategic reserve was only tied to AIHW defence, then i would see no problem if it was fixed instead of being dependant on AIP.
However, it also fuels the CPAs, and these SHOULD scale with AIP.

Both the idea to give more AIP to core guard posts instead of the AI home station, and the idea to make it raise the floor sound very good.
I would rather not go all the way with either though. How about, like +50 AIP on home, and +10 AIP PLUS +10 AIP Floor for each guard post?


And in the end, what kind of behavior are we trying to encourage exactly? Because so far the only encouragement i see is to make people need more power to take the AI homes. Sure, that might force the players to take an additional planet or two. But the way they pick the planet is gonna be the same it is right now: utility of whatever can be taken from this planet.

Here, have some crude MSPaint visual aid. God i hate jpeg artifacts.

[Wingflier]

b) You pay a ton of knowledge getting either harvester upgrades or econ station upgrades, so you can get more income from fewer planets.
c) You just wait a long time for your lower income, watching netflix or whatever, so you can get more income (overall) from fewer planets.
d) You complain in the forums that the game isn't giving you enough m+c   Not so much anymore, but mainly because we made the harvester upgrades so incredible.

The solution right here is simple Keith.

Don't overcomplicated things.

I've already mentioned this in the other threads, but the current value of the Harvester upgrades are INSANE. Yes, I realize we need to strike a balance between giving the player enough resources so they don't AFK on Netflix, and not FLOODING them with it, but right now...we're on the flood side of the spectrum...like Noah's Flood.

Fixing the game's Economy issues (nerfing Harvester upgrades, buffing Econ Stations) would do more than just fix AIP problems. It would also fix many of the current "bonus ship" problems we have. Like I said in the other thread, nothing in the game is forcing me to be efficient with my units. The human economy is so overpowered now that nothing is preventing me from just taking the best ships in a fleetball and right-clicking around the galaxy for the entire game...except for Eyes, which means that the most powerful ships with the lowest cap are the best right now.

So in other words, I see 6 pages of really complex suggestions, and in the end I think the problem is extremely simple. The player economy is just too strong. The benefit of MK2 Harvesters is too powerful NOT to upgrade them.

I'm not saying we should go back to the old Netflix days, but believe me, in their current state you would have to nerf them into oblivion for that to happen. In addition, if you make the player more reliant on Econ Stations (by nerfing Harvesters), it makes the game much more interesting than it is now. The Logistical and Military Orbitals are infinitely better when it comes to protecting a planet than the Econ Stations are, so unless the player is put into a position where he NEEDS Econ Stations, why in God's name would he ever use them?

In my current game, which is difficulty 9/9, I have 2 planets in total. I have unlocked MKII Harvesters and the MKII Military Orbital. Even though I've spent the rest of my research on upgraded ships, and built everything I possibly can, I'm already at max resources, and it's less than an hour into the game.  4 hops away is a Botnet Golem...Once I get to that planet (my force is so big now that nothing can stop me), and capture it, it's basically game over for the AI. Because my economy is so strong, with so few planets, and for so little knowledge, victories like this are easily possible for the player.

Once you fix the game's Economy problems, you make the game's default AIP go up by 1 every 15 minutes like someone said.  This should be the default standard of the game. So people don't HAVE to use Econ Stations or upgrade their Harvesters (once they are actually balanced for what they give you), but sitting on Netflix to wait for your resources will also cause you some REAL pain. Remember that seeking out Resource Nodes or unlocking Zenith Reprocessors are also plausible solutions to this problem, so people can also be taking advantage of those as well.

People can of course lower the default AIP gain manually, but then they can't complain about the game allowing them to AFK on Netflix, because they are playing it in a way it wasn't intended.

edit: I don't see why we're trying to change the Strategic Reserve. What does that have to do with this? Even if we did change it to always act as though it were at 200 AIP, that doesn't fix the problem that for the vast majority of the game (for the first 8 hours basically), the game isn't forcing you to make strategical decisions (unless you consider taking all the proper CSG planets and blobbing your army around strategic).

It's like the kind of RPGs which give you entire levels of crap monsters which you can beat with your eyes closed, then a boss that WTFKILLS you instantly. It's bad design.

This is a problem that needs to be addressed with the current overpowered Economy, and with forcing the player to make decisions instead of just sitting on his planets doing nothing while making money. There is already a mechanic which forces the player to continue expanding and playing in the game, we're just not using it.

[_K_]

In my current game, which is difficulty 9/9, I have 2 planets in total. I have unlocked MKII Harvesters and the MKII Military Orbital. Even though I've spent the rest of my research on upgraded ships, and built everything I possibly can, I'm already at max resources, and it's less than an hour into the game.  4 hops away is a Botnet Golem...Once I get to that planet (my force is so big now that nothing can stop me), and capture it, it's basically game over for the AI. Because my economy is so strong, with so few planets, and for so little knowledge, victories like this are easily possible for the player..

You are sitting with 10 AIP and complain about the game not offering enough challenge. If you have time, try doing this again, but without popping the DC's, so that your second planet bumps you into 30 AIP.

The whole point of this thread is that the window of "AIP makes game difficult but survivable" is too narrow. It is too easy to stay in the "AIP is so low the game is easy" zone thanks to the AIP reducers, and once you leave that zone, it devolves into "AIP is so high you cant repel it without martyrs/warheads" to soon thanks to people playing 9+ AI's.

The player economy IS overpowered, both in solar colelctors and in harvesters, but it is not what takes your situation look so easy. If you had to rebuild your fleet after every attack, and rebuild half your defences every 10 minutes, you wouldnt be swimming in cash as much.

High-mark harvesters scale with the numbe rof planets you have, so their advantages increase as you take more planets. In that sense, they are actually encourage taking more planets.

The benefit of MK2 Harvesters is too powerful NOT to upgrade them.

Actually, you get more additional income per K spent from MKIII harvesters. I have recently tried unlocking them right on game start, and i do feel they were absolutely worth it. Just as you said, AI doesnt offer much trouble with 10 AIP, and i can keep it there even after i have taken 3-4 planets. So i get a great starting boost, and get my fleet upgrades slightly later by taking those planets.