Does AI strength to AIP need adjustment? (aka, is AIP too restrictive?)

[keith.lamothe]

Not liking this.  Basically, I'm hearing "Even though Avenger is an optional plot and can be turned off, we're turning it on all the time now.  No matter what you choose." combined with "Even though CSGs are optional and can be turned off, we're turning them back on for you.  No matter what you choose."

Ok, nevermind, then

[chemical_art]

The avenger complaint i can underatand. however, if nothing is done ai hw.will remain to only be sieges.

But it is hardly like csg because nothing is forcing you to take certainly planets. heck l, you could spam missiles if that is how you wanted to spend your aip.

[Faulty Logic]

I would recommend adding an inversely proportional to AIP strength boost to the strategic reserve,
so all-out battles at the end are harder.

I would also recommend splitting the 100 AIP from killing an AI home station to 50 for entering the HW and 50 for killing it, so long sieges are harder, and you can't have an effectively dead HW without paying for it.

[TechSY730]

I would recommend adding an inversely proportional to AIP strength boost to the strategic reserve,
so all-out battles at the end are harder.

I would also recommend splitting the 100 AIP from killing an AI home station to 50 for entering the HW and 50 for killing it, so long sieges are harder, and you can't have an effectively dead HW without paying for it.

Wouldn't something like if the AIP < N, act like AIP = N when computing strategic reserve strength be effectively equivalent?

And how about something like +50 AIP floor when first entering with military to an AI homeworld (once for each homeworld), +50 actual AIP upon home command station death?
Or even something crazy like +25 of both on both events? Or any other set of ratios?

[Faulty Logic]

Wouldn't something like if the AIP < N, act like AIP = N when computing strategic reserve strength be equivalent?

And how about something like +50 AIP floor when first entering with military to an AI homeworld (once for each homeworld), +50 actual AIP upon home command station death?
Or even something crazy like +25 of both on both events? Or any other set of ratios?

Sure. It doesn't have to be my exact suggested implementation, just something along those lines.

[keith.lamothe]

Is there a particular reason to leave any of the +AIP on the death of the home command station?  Is +100 for entering the planet just too intense?

And I think switching it from +100 "normal" to +100 to the floor (however we split it out) would be good.  If you're coming in with 400 AIP it doesn't need to hit you any harder at that point.

As for the strategic reserve thing, yea, I could just have it always function as if AIP were at least 200 or something like that.  Perhaps difficulty-dependent.

[Diazo]

I apparently had a post eaten somehow, could have sworn I posted this hours ago.

Anyways, rather then getting fancy with everything, just take the AIP of the command station and shift it to the Core Guard Posts.

Call it 10 AIP for killing a core guard post and 0 AIP for killing the AI Home Command?

That way as you engage the AI HW's you experience the AIP increase for at least a little bit.

I was thinking maybe 15 AIP for a core post, but you never actually experience the +100 AIP for the second AI HW command station death as you'd won the game at that point.

D.

[Hearteater]

Anyways, rather then getting fancy with everything, just take the AIP of the command station and shift it to the Core Guard Posts.

Call it 10 AIP for killing a core guard post and 0 AIP for killing the AI Home Command?

Core Guard Posts already cost you 2 AIP, just for reference.

[Winge]

I would recommend adding an inversely proportional to AIP strength boost to the strategic reserve,
so all-out battles at the end are harder.

I would also recommend splitting the 100 AIP from killing an AI home station to 50 for entering the HW and 50 for killing it, so long sieges are harder, and you can't have an effectively dead HW without paying for it.

Diazo mentioned this as well, I believe.  So far, this is the mechanic I like the best, as it doesn't intrude on the Avenger's turf, nor does it matter (much) whether superweapons are enabled or not.

The other option I'm OK with is moving some of the AIP from the Home Command Station to the Core Guard Posts.  Which kind of makes sense.  The AI should be worried about those Guard Posts falling.  Hitting the Command Center would generate more, if it didn't also hinder the AI's efforts.

[TechSY730]

Is there a particular reason to leave any of the +AIP on the death of the home command station?

For me, it really boils down to the fact that the AI home command station is an AI command station. A special one, yes, but one nonetheless. Thus, IMO, it should have AIP on death like all the others. Yes, a different amount than the others due to its specialness, but still have some.

Yes my reasoning is that simple.


Now arguments could be made that some of the AI's response should come from completing your objective (taking out one of the homes), though it is fine to have some when starting on that objective; but these are secondary in my "pattern focused" mind.




Also, I approve of the "minimum effective AIP for strategic reserve" idea. It feels natural and not at all intrusive.

[chemical_art]

Not a fan of automatic aip on even visiting an ai hw. sure itll discourage sieges, but hardly stops cheese or really does anything other then throw a stick. Not to mention itll encourage even lower aip games.


Not a fan of stronger reserves. tbeir powet was nerfed not to long ago, and when buffed didn't discourage low aip games.

I dont fully understand the dialike of bosses simply because it was optional at one time and a weaker version was enabled. actually i kinda do.. but if strategic reserves were first enacted as a plott, would.that.mean now they would crosswd of lf as an option to disecourage low aip.games.

[Cyborg]

The game offers 5000 ways to increase the difficulty. If people are making it purposely easy to win, and that's fun for them, who cares?

Maybe you just need to modify the scoreboard or provide unlockable rewards to get people to take a chance.

[Eternaly_Lost]

Yes,  it would have to work in tandem with a boss.

Which i dont think would be bad at all.

I've never liked how you can nuke both ai hw anyway

So I'm thinking maybe of making the Avenger plot work like that boss (just give the Avenger the CSG effect the mothership has), so people can test this idea before we try it in the "always-on" game.

Might need another surprise or two with the avenger to make it so you don't just murder it immediately too

Vicious players.

CSG + endgame fallen spire = instadeath.

I likely never see it

Personally, I don't care about AIP at all, but likely that has something to do with the fact that I play 4 Homeworld Fallen Spire, and have beaten 4 homeworld fallen spire with the end game on 10/10.

I normally end the games with at least 2000 AIP, so...

[keith.lamothe]

The game offers 5000 ways to increase the difficulty. If people are making it purposely easy to win, and that's fun for them, who cares?

That's a good point: if people want to play it the way it is now with no minimum-strategic-reserve rule and no AIP-floor-increase-on-attacking-AI-homeworld, then we can leave that option open.  And it's possible those two rules won't even please enough folks to be worth including at all, anyway.

But if they do work, and the game does seem more fun that way, I'd like for folks to not unintentionally get an AI that just sits there and takes it while they whittle down the homeworlds.  I'm not sure how much it feels that way right now, but from the feedback and such it seems like it.

Anyway, my current thought with all this is:
1) Add a "Gullible AI" checkbox to the AI Mods section of the lobby, which defaults to on (for now).
2) Have strategic reserve always act as if AIP were at least 200, unless the AI is set to Gullible.
3) Have any damage done to a Core Guard Post trigger a +80 increase to the AIP floor, but this only happens once per AI player, and doesn't happen at all if the AI is set to Gullible.
4) Reduce the AIP-on-death of AI Home Command Stations to 15.  No change based on the new toggle.

5) After a week or two, if people like playing with Gullible off, change it so that Gullible defaults to off, but CSGs also default to off, since non-Gullible would achieve largely the same but with less constraint.

And if someone has a better/more-appropriate name than "Gullible" for this, that's fine too

Or if it's just not a good idea at all, then let me know that too.  There's no point in having it if no one wants it.

[chemical_art]

Anyway, my current thought with all this is:
1) Add a "Gullible AI" checkbox to the AI Mods section of the lobby, which defaults to on (for now).
2) Have strategic reserve always act as if AIP were at least 200, unless the AI is set to Gullible.
3) Have any damage done to a Core Guard Post trigger a +80 increase to the AIP floor, but this only happens once per AI player, and doesn't happen at all if the AI is set to Gullible.
4) Reduce the AIP-on-death of AI Home Command Stations to 15.  No change based on the new toggle.

I would play with these settings, except for one condition, one I'm sure will not be supported.

Strategic reserves are 200 AIP, across the board. At 350 AIP, the AI is gunning you hard, why also make the defense harder? It already passively is due to reinforcements.

Don't go halfway in making strategic reserves a check against low aip games, make them truely a check to that.