Does AI strength to AIP need adjustment? (aka, is AIP too restrictive?)

[Wingflier]

In my current game, which is difficulty 9/9, I have 2 planets in total. I have unlocked MKII Harvesters and the MKII Military Orbital. Even though I've spent the rest of my research on upgraded ships, and built everything I possibly can, I'm already at max resources, and it's less than an hour into the game.  4 hops away is a Botnet Golem...Once I get to that planet (my force is so big now that nothing can stop me), and capture it, it's basically game over for the AI. Because my economy is so strong, with so few planets, and for so little knowledge, victories like this are easily possible for the player..

You are sitting with 10 AIP and complain about the game not offering enough challenge. If you have time, try doing this again, but without popping the DC's, so that your second planet bumps you into 30 AIP.

The whole point of this thread is that the window of "AIP makes game difficult but survivable" it too narrow. It is too easy to stay in the "AIP is so low the game is easy" zone, and once you leave that zone, it devolves into "AIP is so high you cant repel it without martyrs/warheads" to soon.

The player economy IS overpowered, both in solar colelctors and in harvesters, but it is not what takes your situation look so easy. If you had to rebuild your fleet after every attack, and rebuild half your defences every 10 minutes, you wouldnt be swimming in cash as much.

What? No I'm not. I haven't popped any DCs.

I have 37 AIP atm because as I was expanding to take my second planet I lost 2 Cryogenic Pods because of a stealth Eye Bot attack. I also popped a Zenith Cache. Now that my second base is established, I have a force of Full MK1+2 Fighters and Frigates. Full MK1 Bombers and Medic Frigates. Parasite Starships, Siege Starships, Riot Starships, Bombers, and Flagships, + a Champion and the entire Zenith Cache. Which means I have a pretty huge army so far, one that the AI isn't going to stop me with while I have 2, or even 3 planets. I can roll over their attacks and planets right now and replace anything I've lost within seconds (I have full resources). Once I get the Botnet Golem it's GG. This is because of the player Economy.

[_K_]

I have 37 AIP atm because as I was expanding to take my second planet I lost 2 Cryogenic Pods because of a stealth Eye Bot attack.

Huh, 37 AIP? How big are the waves at that value for 9/9? Should be around... 700 ships? Yeah, that sounds doable actually, even if you have to defend 2 planets.

[Wingflier]

I just had a wave of 250 MK2 fighters hit my Homeworld and I didn't even need my force to defend it (they're off clearing the planet with the Botnet). All I needed was my champion and some turrets.

[_K_]

Oh right, misused my table, used data of 9.8 instead of 9.0
37 9/9 AIP translates into roughly 14 10/10 AIP. Quite doable, yeah. That's actually an interesting thing. Since pretty much everything increases with simple multiplication, you could set up some simple AIP conversion ratios between different AI difficulties.

For example, 1 10/10 AIP equals 2.6 9/9 AIP, 3.75 8/8 AIP, 6.8 7/7 AIP.

So 300 7/7 AIP equals 44 10/10 AIP... feels about right,though the 10/10 is actually harder... i didn't acocunt for the exponential growth, instead using a plain +20% multiplier for 8+ difficulties.

So, playing 10/10 is kinda like playing 8/8 with ~4x AIP. This is logical when you consider things that increase AIP. But when you decrease...
DCs and other reducers also would be 4 times more effective at decreasing wave sizes/reinforcements. This is mitigated partially by the nerf DCs get on higher difficulties, but not nearly enough.

As i have said, 1 10/10 AIP = ~7 7/7 AIP, and yet, 2 10/10 DCs = 1 7/7 DC. At higher difficulties, DCs end up absolutely vital, since the 10 AIP you get reduces the waves by 200 ships.

[Histidine]

+1 to reserve change and Wingflier's ideas.

Bear in mind that ideally we'd want players to be constantly taking new planets, not just when it's time to take out the homeworlds and floor riding the rest of the time. Might I suggest (again) a default AIP floor/time setting?

[Cinth]

I just had a wave of 250 MK2 fighters hit my Homeworld and I didn't even need my force to defend it (they're off clearing the planet with the Botnet). All I need was my champion and some turrets.

The HSFF Champ's main weapon has a bonus against light hulls.  I would be surprised if it didn't absolutely murder MK II fighters.  Add in a basic complement of turrets and it should hold off early waves.

Might I suggest (again) a default AIP floor/time setting?

No   If I wanted arbitrary increases in AIP I can either set it up that way or turn on civ leaders.

[_K_]

Yeah, i guess i just wont shut up about DCs and other reducers. I just keep thinking about them and getting new thoughts. Sorry ;_;

How about we make DC work at full capacity only when on a controlled planet? You get full AIP reduction when you have one under control, but only 1/5 (1/3? 1/2?) of it once it is dead. So you can either try to take and hold one, or if you have no intention to take it, just raid it as usual for a smaller bonus.

Right now, DCs are like THE ONLY thing that gives you a bonus with no drawback whatsoever. And the bonus they give is MASSIVE, at least on harder difficulties.

OR We could have DCs reduce AIP, but increase the floor? Or increase the strategic reserves?

For CPs, we'd want a mechanic similar to what we are discussing about AIHWs - some way to make it harder to neuter the system and then just kill the CP at any time with a raid starship. A large gravity+tachyon field around it, perhaps?

The point is: Reducers shouldnt let you stay at the AIP floor. They should help reduce AIP when you are already far off the floor.

[Wingflier]

Personally I think CSGs partially solve the Data Center problem. The other piece of the puzzle is the Economy.

The way I see it you should have two major options:

A) Spend all your Knowledge on Economy (so upgraded Harvesters AND Econ Stations) in order to sustain a small group of planets and still be able to keep up production well.
-The drawback to this option is that you now have no knowledge to spend on your actual fleet.

B) Take lots of planets so you have a bustling Economy, but also have the Knowledge to unlock a large army.
-The drawback here is the high AIP.

Option C) is anything inbetween these two extremes.

The problem is that right now, Option B) isn't necessary. You can have a small base AND a plenty of economy and knowledge left over for a large army.

My theory is that if we fix this issue, Data Centers will no longer be problematic.

EDIT: Some people completely took this post out of context and added an Option D). Take a small base and spend all your Knowledge on military while waiting on Netflix for your resources to slowly accrue.

That option was thoroughly explained here and is dealt with by the default AIP gain being doubled.  Reading comprehension, please.

[_K_]

The way I see it you should have two major options:

How about another option:
D) Take very few planets but spend knowledge on combat upgrades. Spend long periods of time saving money and rebuilding fleet, whine at the forum about netflix


Your suggestion basically aims at directly nerfing the player, so he cannot effectively progress while still staying at the floor.
My suggestion is that we nerf the means to sustain this floor, so the player simply cannot stay at it for as long.

While both aim to achieve the same goal, i just believe nerfing the economy hard enough to achieve it will come with more undesirable side-effects.

This thread generally has lots of great ideas, some just would achieve the goals in a more simple and fun way than the others, but this is debateable... which we are doing right now.

[Toranth]

Not liking this.  Basically, I'm hearing "Even though Avenger is an optional plot and can be turned off, we're turning it on all the time now.  No matter what you choose." combined with "Even though CSGs are optional and can be turned off, we're turning them back on for you.  No matter what you choose."

Ok, nevermind, then

Bit of a kneejerk reaction, sorry. 
I hate the Avenger plot - it's either disasterous or trivial, depending on how prepared you are for it.  If you maneuver for a simultaneous HW kill, it's a joke.  If you have to kill the Avenger, it's a fleetwipe, necessitating and hour or two of Netflix while your fleet rebuilds before you can proceed with the game.

The other problem I have is that if these things are optional, make them truly optional.  If they're not optional, get rid of the option.  If Avenger becomes mandatory and you remove the option so everyone knows "That's just how the game is played", then fine. 
If CSGs are turned off, then don't have the Mothership CSG component - the player turned it off, after all.  If that seems unbalanced, well, the player chose those options.
But please don't mix things.  It's like having Clippy around.

Clippy:  "I see you're trying to start a game without some options.  Let me help you with that!"
*turns on Avengers, Hybrids, Astrotrains, and changes player name to 'Silly-butt'*
Clippy:  "Glad to help!"
Player:  Noooooooooo!

[Toranth]

Personally I think CSGs partially solve the Data Center problem. The other piece of the puzzle is the Economy.

The way I see it you should have two major options:

A) Spend all your Knowledge on Economy (so upgraded Harvesters AND Econ Stations) in order to sustain a small group of planets and still be able to keep up production well.
-The drawback to this option is that you now have no knowledge to spend on your actual fleet.

B) Take lots of planets so you have a bustling Economy, but also have the Knowledge to unlock a large army.
-The drawback here is the high AIP.

Option C) is anything inbetween these two extremes.

The problem is that right now, Option B) isn't necessary. You can have a small base AND a plenty of economy and knowledge left over for a large army.

My theory is that if we fix this issue, Data Centers will no longer be problematic.

Economy is time.  Unless you've entered the Economic Death Spiral and are trying to win the game before hitting bottom, just waiting more will solve your economic problems.

If you cut Harvesters by 50%, it means that I upgrade to Harvester IIIs anyway, I just watch more Netflix while rebuilding.  I still don't take any extra planets, so nothing has changed about player behavior or AIP importance.  It just slows everything down.

Yeah, i guess i just wont shut up about DCs and other reducers. I just keep thinking about them and getting new thoughts. Sorry ;_;
<snip>
The point is: Reducers shouldnt let you stay at the AIP floor. They should help reduce AIP when you are already far off the floor.

If you remove or nerf Datacenters, it still won't change the behavior either.  The problem is not that people stay at the AIP floor, it's that people stay at the minimum value of AIP needed, because the advantage gained from doing AIP increasing activities isn't worth the disadvantage that comes from increasing AIP.

If we want players to take more AIP than the absolute minimum, you need to
a) make it REQUIRED like CSGs do, or
b) make AIP's downsides small compared to the benefit gained.

[Wingflier]

How about another option:
D) Take very few planets but spend knowledge on combat upgrades. Spend long periods of time saving money and rebuilding fleet, whine at the forum about netflix

Economy is time.  Unless you've entered the Economic Death Spiral and are trying to win the game before hitting bottom, just waiting more will solve your economic problems.

If you cut Harvesters by 50%, it means that I upgrade to Harvester IIIs anyway, I just watch more Netflix while rebuilding.  I still don't take any extra planets, so nothing has changed about player behavior or AIP importance.  It just slows everything down.

Reading comprehension please.

Once you fix the game's Economy problems, you make the game's default AIP go up by 1 every 15 minutes like someone said.  This should be the default standard of the game. So people don't HAVE to use Econ Stations or upgrade their Harvesters (once they are actually balanced for what they give you), but sitting on Netflix to wait for your resources will also cause you some REAL pain. Remember that seeking out Resource Nodes or unlocking Zenith Reprocessors are also plausible solutions to this problem, so people can also be taking advantage of those as well.

People can of course lower the default AIP gain manually, but then they can't complain about the game allowing them to AFK on Netflix, because they are playing it in a way it wasn't intended.

In essence, we are forcing the player to either expand quickly to get his production going, or spend his Knowledge to do it.  AFKing on Netflix is NOT an option with 4 AIP per hour.  Please take this into consideration when discussing this topic.

[Eternaly_Lost]

The way I see it you should have two major options:

How about another option:
D) Take very few planets but spend knowledge on combat upgrades. Spend long periods of time saving money and rebuilding fleet, whine at the forum about netflix


Your suggestion basically aims at directly nerfing the player, so he cannot effectively progress while still staying at the floor.
My suggestion is that we nerf the means to sustain this floor, so the player simply cannot stay at it for as long.

While both aim to achieve the same goal, i just believe nerfing the economy hard enough to achieve it will come with more undesirable side-effects.

This thread generally has lots of great ideas, some just would achieve the goals in a more simple and fun way than the others, but this is debateable... which we are doing right now.

Option E:

You take massive numbers of planets, You have massive number of ships with a total cost that makes Ion MKV start to be reasonable (My spire fleets have started to cost more then that), you spend a long amount of time in Hulu waiting for them to rebuild after a massive fight.

It takes a long time to replace a fleet that costs over 100 Million Resources. A very long time.

[chemical_art]

If the strategic reserve was only tied to AIHW defence, then i would see no problem if it was fixed instead of being dependant on AIP.
However, it also fuels the CPAs, and these SHOULD scale with AIP.

This is true.

However, 98% of the time, the mechanic provides a "floor" for CPA's. Meaning the strategic reserves simply add ships. If that was the only thing holding it back, programming can be done to stimulate that fact.

The problem is not that people stay at the AIP floor, it's that people stay at the minimum value of AIP needed, because the advantage gained from doing AIP increasing activities isn't worth the disadvantage that comes from increasing AIP.

This is the core of the reason why I wan't strategic reserves to remain static. Since almost everything, aside from the defensive turrets themselves, scale with AIP, the result will always be ridding the lowest AIP.

In general, when your AIP raises, your offensive ability raises, but the AI counter attacks also rise. This system, in of itself, means sometimes gaining AIP for power works.

However, with the AI defenses raising both due to reinforcements increasing and strategic reserves increasing, the result is that for AI HW your offensive ability raises which is largely nullified by the AI defenses also raising, never mind the AI counter attacks. So there is no reason to get more AIP then you need to strike at the AI HW in the first place.

[Kjara]

Regarding resource income:  One reason why taking less planets is an optimal strategy, even with linear ai response, is that
that (metal + crystal) income grows much slower than the AI response.

A bit of math:

no upgrades, non-econ command center, 5 resource node planet: 150ish M+C
no upgrades, homeworld: ~910

6 planets to double income


Full harvestor upgrades, 5 resource planet: 323
Full harvestor upgrades, homeworld: 1365

4.5 planets to double income


Mark 3 econ + full harvestor: 595
Full harvestor upgrades, homeworld: 1365

2.2ish


Thus, even sinking 18k knowledge into income, the player is still only growing at about half the rate of the ai response.   Unless you are getting a heck of alot more out of those planets, it remains optimal to stay with as few planets as you can that cover your energy needs.  Since energy grows almost linearly, even this only doesn't hurt you for expanding, rather than rewarding you.

How to fix this?  Not really sure, but I feel that the homeworld income needs to come down, but ideally without making the start of the game too slow.  Perhaps a large increase to starting resources?