Author Topic: Discussion: Player Economy  (Read 18046 times)

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #105 on: November 21, 2012, 12:42:32 pm »
If you want to make harvesters the small-empire option and econ commands the large-empire option, how about this:

Remove caps on Mk II and Mk III economic command stations. Add caps to Mk II and Mk III harvesters. Tweak numbers so they hit parity at about 10 systems.

Note: Since the economic command station upgrade cannot be applied to the homeworld, harvesters will be more advantageous in multi-HW games.

Caps aren't going to change the balance in empire size between the two options.  In order to have a place for an econ station, you need to have several worlds around it either neutered, or controlled, making the econ station the defacto large-empire solution.  Even though it has a cap.  You can't even HIT the cap (for MkII+III) until your empire exceeds some 15 planets, depending on layout (minimum would be 14, if you have an end on a snake map: home + 12 econ + 1 border world)

Offline Kahuna

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Kahuna Matata!
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #106 on: November 21, 2012, 01:54:20 pm »
If you want to make harvesters the small-empire option and econ commands the large-empire option, how about this:

Remove caps on Mk II and Mk III economic command stations. Add caps to Mk II and Mk III harvesters. Tweak numbers so they hit parity at about 10 systems.

Note: Since the economic command station upgrade cannot be applied to the homeworld, harvesters will be more advantageous in multi-HW games.

Caps aren't going to change the balance in empire size between the two options.  In order to have a place for an econ station, you need to have several worlds around it either neutered, or controlled, making the econ station the defacto large-empire solution.  Even though it has a cap.  You can't even HIT the cap (for MkII+III) until your empire exceeds some 15 planets, depending on layout (minimum would be 14, if you have an end on a snake map: home + 12 econ + 1 border world)
All Economics Command Stations could have infinite cap and have their energy production increased to
MarkI 5k
MarkII 15k
MarkIII 25k

MarkI Harvester cap: infinite
MarkII Harvester cap: 4*8=32 asteroids (metal or crystal). Max resource production: 32*30=960 (metal + crystal)
MarkIII Harvester cap: 4*6=24 asteroids (metal or crystal). Max resource production: 24*55=1320 (metal + crystal)

MarkIII Economical Command Stations vs MarkII and III Harvesters:
MarkII and III Harvesters' resource production
960+1320=2280

MarkIII Economical Command Station's resource production
160+160=320
25k energy production = indirect +50 metal and crystal
=320+100=420

2280/420=5,4
6 planets with MarkIII Economical Command Stations produces more resources than caps of MarkII and III Harvesters. I think that would be fair. Harvesters for low AIP games and ECSs for high AIP.

Without energy production: 2280/320=7,1
8 planets with MarkIII Economical Command Stations produces more resources than caps of MarkII and III Harvesters.

Boom! Problem solved!
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 02:15:42 pm by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #107 on: November 21, 2012, 02:21:52 pm »
On a side note, Keith stated (awhile back, I'd have to find the thread) that the reason harvesters were uncapped and at the time remaining so was because of auto-rebuild maintenance.  Having to discreetly choose harvester rebuilds was tedious and aggravating, and the idea was pushed aside.

Also note that harvesters were buffed to compete with equivalent Mark II/III resource gains.  If an adjustment is required, nerf the harvesters, but I don't see that seriously improving the problem.  I (and others, presumably) would simply switch back to the econ stations.  I don't have a problem leaving MK III/II Econs on borderworlds where they're properly gate-raided.  Heck even now I usually just drop an Econ I there anyway.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Kahuna

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Kahuna Matata!
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #108 on: November 21, 2012, 02:28:56 pm »
On a side note, Keith stated (awhile back, I'd have to find the thread) that the reason harvesters were uncapped and at the time remaining so was because of auto-rebuild maintenance.  Having to discreetly choose harvester rebuilds was tedious and aggravating, and the idea was pushed aside.
Harvesters could be auto upgraded to the highest possible mark like now. If MarkIIIs are capped then MarkIIs would be built. No manual stuff needed.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Lancefighter

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,440
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #109 on: November 21, 2012, 02:45:21 pm »
I think I thought up an idea to kinda fix that - Unlocking mk2/3 harvesters gives you a 'planetwide harvester control ... thing'.

This planetwide harvester control ... thing allows for an inf cap of mk2/3 harvester for that planet - Allowing it to rebuild as much as it wants, ON THAT PLANET.

Minor problems with this is that it allows for individual planets with large resource deposits (mainly, homeworlds. Possibly also an issue in multiplayer games) become VASTLY more useful than lower resourced planets. But then - is this a bad thing? I dunno.
Ideas? Suggestions? Concerns? Bugs to be squashed? Report them on the Mantis Bugtracker!

Author of the Dyson Project and the Spire Gambit

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #110 on: November 21, 2012, 03:16:31 pm »
Minor problems with this is that it allows for individual planets with large resource deposits (mainly, homeworlds. Possibly also an issue in multiplayer games) become VASTLY more useful than lower resourced planets. But then - is this a bad thing? I dunno.

Well, that's kinda how it stands now, no?
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #111 on: November 21, 2012, 04:26:19 pm »
On a side note, Keith stated (awhile back, I'd have to find the thread) that the reason harvesters were uncapped and at the time remaining so was because of auto-rebuild maintenance.  Having to discreetly choose harvester rebuilds was tedious and aggravating, and the idea was pushed aside.
Harvesters could be auto upgraded to the highest possible mark like now. If MarkIIIs are capped then MarkIIs would be built. No manual stuff needed.

What happens when a Mk3 is blown up?

Does a Mk1 on the other side of the galaxy upgrade to a Mk3?

Offline Lancefighter

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,440
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #112 on: November 21, 2012, 08:36:20 pm »
Minor problems with this is that it allows for individual planets with large resource deposits (mainly, homeworlds. Possibly also an issue in multiplayer games) become VASTLY more useful than lower resourced planets. But then - is this a bad thing? I dunno.

Well, that's kinda how it stands now, no?

Well.. Yes. The idea here though is that you could throw on other silly things, like 'this item replaces your energy collector'
Ideas? Suggestions? Concerns? Bugs to be squashed? Report them on the Mantis Bugtracker!

Author of the Dyson Project and the Spire Gambit

Offline Aeson

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #113 on: November 21, 2012, 09:28:15 pm »
Caps aren't going to change the balance in empire size between the two options.  In order to have a place for an econ station, you need to have several worlds around it either neutered, or controlled, making the econ station the defacto large-empire solution.  Even though it has a cap.  You can't even HIT the cap (for MkII+III) until your empire exceeds some 15 planets, depending on layout (minimum would be 14, if you have an end on a snake map: home + 12 econ + 1 border world)
Why is it necessary to have the border world if I'm playing in a snake (or X, or other easily chokepointed map type)? If I'm going to make a fortress world, the command station type that I use doesn't really matter, because:
1. It's going to be on the wormhole leading further into my space, or otherwise far from the wormhole(s) enemies will enter the system through.
2. It's going to be buried under as many forcefields as I can throw on it while still blocking the wormhole(s) leading into my space to a reasonable extent and leaving a few to cover the home command station.
3. I'm going to have at least half, and probably more, of my turrets (and any other defensive structures I have) on that planet.
4. It will have a major minefield around any entry wormholes, and some strategically placed tractor beams and gravity turrets to hold enemies where I want them to be.

At that point, the type of command station is immaterial for all but the heaviest attacks or waves that ignore tractor beams and gravity effects, and the firepower I provide for defense should be able to handle that kind of attack on a fortress world. Certainly the military command stations are slightly superior in terms of survivability, and logistics stations increase the amount of time my turrets and other defenses have to shoot at AI vessels, but if an attack can overwhelm my fortress world having a non-economic command station isn't going to greatly increase the ability of the fortress world to hold out, and it's not like there's going to be anything behind the fortress world to stop the attack until it hits the homeworld (with the exception of Fallen Spire games).

I'm also not convinced that the economy needs to be significantly readjusted. I can have a ridiculously strong economy if I spend ridiculous amounts of knowledge to get there, and that's fine. I can also have a very strong military for about the same amount of knowledge, and play with a weaker economy. Neither way is particularly better than the other. From what other people have said, the expected number of planets that would be taken is somewhere around ten or fifteen, so you're expected to have 40,000 to 55,000 knowledge to work with in any given game, plus anything you get from knowledge hacking or destroying neighboring worlds to collect the knowledge. If you go all-out for the economy, you're going to spend 18,000 of your knowledge on things that cannot attack enemy worlds or defend your worlds, and that represents half to a third of the knowledge you are expected to have (assuming that the ten to fifteen worlds number that someone mentioned earlier is accurate). You're also going to limit the options you have when placing command stations, because if you're going to spend 9,000 knowledge unlocking economic command stations you really should use them.

I'd also like to point out that six Mark II economic stations is equivalent to about four or five worlds with an average of four Mark III harvesters each, in terms of resource income, not including any income from harvesters on the worlds that you put the Mark II Economic stations on. It's also equivalent to about eight worlds averaging four Mark II harvesters. Six Mark III economic stations is about equivalent to nine worlds averaging four Mark III harvesters in resource income. I don't see this as a particularly bad trade-off in terms of knowledge investment.

Edited to correct a math error.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 09:36:07 pm by Aeson »

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #114 on: November 21, 2012, 11:54:35 pm »
Why is it necessary to have the border world if I'm playing in a snake (or X, or other easily chokepointed map type)? If I'm going to make a fortress world, the command station type that I use doesn't really matter, because:
1. It's going to be on the wormhole leading further into my space, or otherwise far from the wormhole(s) enemies will enter the system through.
2. It's going to be buried under as many forcefields as I can throw on it while still blocking the wormhole(s) leading into my space to a reasonable extent and leaving a few to cover the home command station.
3. I'm going to have at least half, and probably more, of my turrets (and any other defensive structures I have) on that planet.
4. It will have a major minefield around any entry wormholes, and some strategically placed tractor beams and gravity turrets to hold enemies where I want them to be.

Nice way to strawman my point.  You can do that for ONE chokepoint, sure.  Try a half-dozen or more in the more open map types, where you can't drop half of your force fields and turrets in one location.

Then the command station type matters.

My point was that the MINIMUM number of worlds that you need to take to make full use of econ stations is 14.  I'll even grant that you could get away with 13 (12 econs + homeworld).  That is not a small empire.  That's a fairly large one.  A 240 AIP large empire.

Quote
I'm also not convinced that the economy needs to be significantly readjusted. I can have a ridiculously strong economy if I spend ridiculous amounts of knowledge to get there, and that's fine. I can also have a very strong military for about the same amount of knowledge, and play with a weaker economy. Neither way is particularly better than the other. From what other people have said, the expected number of planets that would be taken is somewhere around ten or fifteen

You're a bit high these days.  It's more like 6 to 12.  Anything more on 7.6 and up and the attacking waves will murder all of your defenses and your fleet, giving you just enough time to refleet before they hit you again.  Add in things like exo-waves, hybrids, or other fancy tools for the AI and your AIP ceiling* comes down even more.

Unless you're playing Fallen Spire, in which case, the plot gives you the tools necessary to defend your massive, massive empire.

*That is, the value of AIP above which it becomes "losing slowly" or worse.

Offline Aeson

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #115 on: November 22, 2012, 12:37:10 am »
Nice way to strawman my point.  You can do that for ONE chokepoint, sure.  Try a half-dozen or more in the more open map types, where you can't drop half of your force fields and turrets in one location.
I was responding specifically to the part where you said that I'd need a minimum of fourteen worlds on a Snake type map in order to make full use of economic stations, hence why my opening sentence was the question "Why do I need the border world on a snake map?". In this case I'd have one or two chokepoint worlds, depending on whether I start in the middle or on an end, and thus it becomes entirely reasonable to have most of your defenses on a single world. It can also be done for map types for which it isn't easy to create a single chokepoint, although you'd have to not care about what happens to the undefended worlds, which defeats the purpose of investing in the economy.

I agree that 13 or more worlds is not a small empire, unless I'm playing a Fallen Spire game, but I also never said that it was a small empire.

Also, unless I've done my math wrong, 9000 knowledge spent on economic stations gets you more resources per second over-all starting at your fourth world and ending at your twelfth world, assuming that the worlds you take average four resource nodes each and you're putting the highest mark kind of economic station on each of them that you still can (which should be reasonably similar to the resource income for Mark I or Mark II of any of the other station types). Only reason it would be a worse investment than sinking 9000 knowledge into harvesters is if you cannot afford the opportunity cost of not having some other type of command station present in the system.

An Excel spreadsheet containing my math:  https://www.dropbox.com/s/bp7siqqnnz56owg/ResourceIncomeAIWar.xlsx

Warning: I didn't make this in such a way that it's particularly easy to read. The 24th and 25th lines are total resource incomes for a homeworld with 12 resource nodes and the number of other colonies listed at the top (the line that says 1, 2, 3, 4, ...), and the 27th and 28th lines are the same but for a homeworld with 13 resource nodes. In each pairing, the top line assumes you spent 9000 knowledge on harvesters, while the second line assumes you spent 9000 knowledge on economic stations, with no other economic improvements purchased. It also assumes you don't have any ongoing resource drains (Matter Converters, perennial ship construction, anything the trader sells). One final assumption in the spreadsheet is that all command stations built are economic command stations. This should be reasonable for a ballpark estimate of where you'd stand with Mark I or Mark II versions of non-economic command stations, though perhaps not for Mark III versions, since those tend to be closer to Mark II economic stations. I've also assumed that the wiki's numbers for economic station resource income are accurate, which might not be true since some of the other command station information looks outdated.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 12:48:03 am by Aeson »

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #116 on: November 22, 2012, 01:15:29 am »
My point is, econ stations are inherently for large empires, due to the opportunity cost of building them (i.e. not being able to leverage logi or mil stations for the defense bonuses, relegating econ stations to interior worlds).

Hence why I'm trying to press for making harvesters better for the small empire (up to ~6 worlds, rather than for the ginormously huge empire of 14+ worlds).

Offline Aeson

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #117 on: November 22, 2012, 11:45:56 am »
Hence why I'm trying to press for making harvesters better for the small empire (up to ~6 worlds, rather than for the ginormously huge empire of 14+ worlds).
Harvester upgrades are already better for up to four worlds, by about 300/200/100 resources per second for your 2nd/3rd/4th world (1st, 2nd, 3rd that you take), assuming you averaged four resource nodes per planet. At your fifth world, your economy is only weaker by 9 resources per second if your homeworld had 13 resource nodes, or by 44 resources per second if your homeworld had 12 resource nodes. Your sixth planet turns that into 160 less (12 resource node homeworld) or 125 less (13 resource node homeworld), but the total income is still better than 2500 resources per second with either economic stations or harvester upgrades. All of this assumes that you've averaged four resource nodes per world, though. If you manage to get a higher average, then harvesters will be relatively better; if you do worse than the average, economic stations will be better. When you start considering opportunity costs of using economic versus other command stations, harvester upgrades start to look more appealing for small empires since they allow you to put whatever command station you want on the world, rather than relying on you to put economic command stations everywhere.

Another interesting thing that I see about the numbers is that getting the Mark II harvesters and the Mark II economic stations is strictly worse than either getting all Mark III harvesters or getting Mark III economic stations and using them. Compared to harvester IIIs, harvester IIs and economic station IIs gives about 300 resources less per second from your homeworld until your seventh world, after which point the difference increases by about 100 resources per second per additional world, assuming four resource points per world. Compared to getting economic station IIIs, the resource incomes are about equal at the first expansion world (econ II and harvester II leads by 10 resources per second if your homeworld had 13 resource points, and has the same income if your homeworld had 12 resource points, assuming that the first world you take has four resource points), and then starts to fall behind. Econ IIs and Harvester IIs might eventually become better than Econ IIIs and Harvester Is, but up to your 9th world (8th that you take) Econ II/Harvester II trails by about 100*(worlds - 2) resources per second (worlds is the total number of planets you hold), and continues trailing by more than 600 resources per second out to at least the 19th world you take, assuming four resource nodes per planet. This is a much larger difference than I would have expected since the knowledge costs of unlocking both Mark II harvesters and the Mark II economic station is almost equal to the cost of unlocking either both Mark III harvesters or Mark III economic stations. Saving 1000 knowledge might be worth the economic costs on very small empires, but probably not on medium (about six worlds) or larger empires, and you'd still have to make use of as many of the Mark II economic stations as possible.

Offline Kahuna

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Kahuna Matata!
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #118 on: November 22, 2012, 11:54:25 am »
What happens when a Mk3 is blown up?
It's rebuilt. Rebuilding has priority over upgrading.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #119 on: November 22, 2012, 01:53:52 pm »
What happens when a Mk3 is blown up?
It's rebuilt. Rebuilding has priority over upgrading.

Except that harvesters don't leave remains.

Not to mention the 5 or so minutes during which it will not auto-rebuild because there are enemy units present.