Author Topic: Discussion: Player Economy  (Read 17948 times)

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2012, 12:43:25 am »
Regarding harvesters:

I don't want them to go away. I very much want there to be more then one economic research tree (aside from command stations). I want it so the player who gets upgraded harvesters and an economic command station will have a juggernaut of an economy. It seems to be having two different things to research would expand as a whole potential strategies.

I'm defending harvesters as a guy who has frequently forgotten they exist, let alone use them.

Now to balance them?

I don't have the energy to fight sleep enough to do the math, but to examine them one must examine a couple of variables.


-resource differences between MK X harvesters and MK X economy station (and the necessary number of harvesters needed per world to overcome the difference, keeping in mind the harvesters have a 12 harvester advantage) The most straightforward balance statistic

-resource differences between MK X economy station vs MK X non-economic station (to determine value for below)

-and to synthesize the two variables above, of the relationship of harvester slots vs economic stations vs non economic stations (To determine if, when upgrading both harvestors and economic stations, the relative increase of the economic station X when X harvestors are already unlocked make the decesion really valuable when resources are increased with non economic stations) 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 12:49:39 am by chemical_art »
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Offline Delwack

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Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2012, 01:46:08 am »
First, since I'm relatively new here (again), note that I generally play on 7/7 and consider myself an okay, but not fantastic player.  Also note that I've only had about 30-40 hours worth of experience with the 6.0+ version of the game (the last version I played being circa 2009). 

I must also note that I'm used to playing with a bit higher AIP than seems to be norm (at least on the forums) these days.  400-600 used to be the recommended (And I think the wiki still recommends this), but if you aren't working on the second homeworld at 400-450, I don't think you have much longer to live anymore.  I don't know if the base game without expansions enabled is a point of balance anymore , but I would like to note that at ~400 AIP you get into a stalemate situation with the AI based on pure fleet/starship attrition and income rates.  Without super weapons and no fallen spire I am relying entirely on a wide array of MkIV ships and core fabs to do all the heavy lifting on offense and defense.  You end up right now in 'economic stalemate', where if you clear out the released threat you need to partially refleet, by the time that is done, the threat has built back up.  Attempting aggressive actions is very difficult because as soon as you leave with a large enough force to make a dent in the front line the threat starts to pour in back home.  You'll often lose your offensive force in achieving the objective, while getting attrition ed on defense, forcing more wait time while you refleet 6 caps of mark IV's.  (having fooled around a bit with expansions at this point, I'd also like to note that expansion bonus ships in general seem to be slightly more powerful/more diverse than the original game ships, which are mostly dps/force multipliers of some type and are built to either soak damage or provide larger amounts of dps, dying in large numbers in the process.)

This, needless to say gets very dragged out as auto-AIP ticks.  Higher AIP used to be very grindy without being in danger of dying (unwinnable situations).  Now it outright kills you when you don't have the resources to refleet/rebuild fast enough.  It kills me at lower AIPs that I would have expected though.  A weaker economy will only exasperate this.  Nerfing the overall economy will make higher AIP (and by 'higher' I mean 400-500, the low end of what is supposeds to be 'acceptable' at the endgame) to play without superweapons.  This may be intended, as 'vanilla' games where you have to play fleeter or starshiper without any toys enabled may not be a balance point anymore.

It sounds like very 'low planet' strategies are running a bit high on economy right now, but 'higher AIP' empires (superweapons or not) still need the higher-octane economies to support them.  I'm actually doing much better in my most recent attempt, where I've done two things:  (1) turned auto aip off (I really don't want to turn autoaip off again though) and (2) kept my AI progress much lower (only capped 15 worlds total, with 8 data centers and the homeworld I only 'paid' for 6 of them in effect: 120-140 AIP total only).  This has lead to much more success, but also means that I don't actually need an economy because my stuff simply doesn't die because the AI never has enough of anything anywhere. 

I think the low-economy effect happens to be a sub-issue of low-AIP type games.  in anything above 300 AIP, you really, really need the resources that the current harvesters generate for refleeting (well, if you aren’t using supeweapons anyway).  I'd strongly urge if you do something to nerf the economy you try to avoid hurting higher AIP games that need the resources badly. 

If harvesters are mostly a problem in Low AIP/no planets taken games, here are a few possible solutions:

1)  I think the easiest and simplest solution is to reduce the number of harvesters on the human homeworlds (note: I'd leave the harvester numbers on the AI homeworlds alone, it's a nice bonus if you can hold onto it).  You can also perhaps slightly increase the average nodes found per planet (maybe by just one, or one every 2 or 3 planets) to encourage taking of more planets to help balance it out; it'd probably net out as a slight increase to larger empires. 

2a) If harvester efficiency is reduced in some way [say marks are removed or nerfed, as was suggested above], I think higher AIP games needs to have some way to make this up.  Perhaps something like raising the cap on the number of MK II and MK III econ stations that can be built. 

2b) Still assuming harvester efficiency is reduce in some way, another possible solution would be to have some kind of global increase, depending on the total number of planets/harvesters you have.  This would maybe be an addition to the econ station; increases economic output of harvesters (or maybe even global economic output?) by n%/2n% per MkII/MkIII station. This would allow larger empires to keep up during the attrition wars while reducing early game/low planet economy.  This has the added benefit of synergizing econ stations with harvesters, making someone who spent the full 18k knowledge (I think that's how much it costs?) have a super-economy.  That's the same knowledge cost as 3 MkIII unlocks, if I'm not mistaken. 

3) This next one is really complex, but another potential option is to change the role of MkII and MkIII harvesters to be more useful for larger empires, and econ cmd stations to be more useful for smaller empires.

I'd accomplish this by having MkII/MkIII harvesters generate the same resources as a MkI harvester, but it each harvester would be boosted by a percentage per same harvester controlled globally (I’d suggest you keep the %’s separate for metal and crystal).  This would cause large resource boosts (I'd try to balance it to roughly where MkIII's are today for a 15-20 planet player).  This would also scale human players economies up at larger sizes, where I feel that they are at disadvantage sooner to where they used to be (well, superweapons non-withstanding of course.)   Also, this makes each 'harvester kill' and Cmd station kill the AI does in a high AIP/higher human world game more detrimental:  you need to hold onto your territory effectively and prevent harvester deaths to retain higher economic bonuses. 

Let's work out some numbers, I checked a few games I had:  14 planets controlled had 64 harvesters (4.6 harv/planet), 18 planets controlled had 78 harvesters (4.33 harv/planet).  If we want to use the 18 planet game as the balancing point:  mk II harvesters produce 30, or 1.5 times that of a Mk I and MK III harvesters currently produce 55, or 2.75 times that of a Mk I.

With that in mind, 100 harvesters (I'd estimate that'd be ~25 planets): MkII should remain a 50% boost; if the 100 harvesters are split evenly [they are unlikely to be, but assume for this], then 50 metal harvesters should each give a 1% bonus to total metal generated from harvesters, totaling a 50% boost (150% total harvester income).  Same would apply to the crystal harvesters.

MkIIIs ghould remain a 175% boost; if 100 harvesters, then 50 metal harvesters should each give a 3.5% bonus to total metal generated per harvester. 

The bonuses would be smaller for few-world games, and larger for many-world games.  You can change the point where you want the balance to be with some quick calculations, but the net effect is that higher mark harvesters benefit larger, higher AIP games where the resources are needed more.  Thus these upgrades mean your economy no longer scale linearly.  there are a few things to keep in mind about this: 

* REALLY high planet capture rates will give the player a HUGE economy.  I still don't expect it to keep up with growing AI waves, growing boarder aggression, and higher Mk ships in general though, unless the player somehow manages to become super cost efficient (which is possible with superweapons I suppose; I don’t really have the experience with them to comment).
* 'economic spiral of doom' is easier to achieve, as killing 3 or 4 planets will scale your economy down by twofold:  loss of resources from the harvesters themselves and loss of multiplier on all other harvesters.

4) This is a variation on the previous idea (but is probably too computationally intensive to implement).  rather than a global bonus, which can potentially have tricky out-of-control scaling (though I think the AI still scales even FASTER), give a bonus based upon # of total harvesters built only on adjacent planets.  This will have a number of effects: 

i) Benefits more contiguous empires; leaves economic command stations for more spread out empires. 
ii) affects map balance:  maps with more adjacency (think cross-hatch) will have higher bonuses, allowing players to better keep up economically with the additional avenues of attack. 
iii) scales up with more planets, but doesn't scale out of control due to the 'local' restriction. 
iv) buffs play of more contiguous empires or ‘clusters’ of human worlds (this may or may not be desirable). 

5) In the context of resources, you can globally reduce the amount of m/c (and maybe energy too) produced, but then have excess energy flow into either 'energy->metal' or 'energy->crystal' converters.  Balance it so that a target planet size (n) comes out about the same.  This makes losing command stations (and energy collectors hurt more).  This will slow down low-planet games economies bit while still allowing for decent resource flows at higher AIP games.  This also allows you to rebuild/refleet faster if everything you had just kicked the bucket, but it slows down as you approach cap, since your energy is no longer channeling into crystal/metal production.

Or you can combine any number of these changes... but balancing that might be a bit of a challenge.

Lastly, if a global economy nerf is in order, I'd suggest seriously looking at the threat release mechanic.  I seem to be losing a slow war of attrition at ~400-420 AIP... maybe I'm just not that good.

I don't have much to say about energy.  Energy now acts as a global food cap for all units/buildings/etc, since it does not divert resources anymore.  If the intent is to just leave it as a global food cap, then it probably needs some tweaking (that is, the energy per planet should probably come down, but perhaps the bonus to the homeworld should be buffed so you can still produce quite a bit off of 1 world?)  You simply either have enough energy or you don't. 
I’m not sure how you can re-introduce energy having an opportunity cost without allowing energy micro back into the picture.  Perhaps just a global reduction of energy per planet is in order?  I don’t seem to ever be short energy in my higher AIP games, unless I’ve lost half of my worlds, at which point I should be dead by all means anyway.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 03:46:08 am by Delwack »

Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2012, 02:50:54 am »
To repeat something from the "State of the Game" thread, I suggested reducing homeworld harvester points precisely because it won't really nerf FS and other high-AIP games --- I also suggested a slight buff to harvesters to compensate, actually; as then they can be balanced for large (presumably very resource-intensive) empires without affecting the early game.  It will also have what I think is the desirable effect of making econ stations the most efficient economic upgrade for small-to-medium empires.

Stepping back a bit, however, I think we should bring up why we want to nerf econ --- for me, it's because I'm concerned that the pressure to take new worlds has gotten a bit too low; it seems that there's a been a drift from non-FS games averaging about 300 AIP by first homeworld (that's the advice I got when I started playing) to 200 or less.  This seems like a real shame to me --- I certainly think the super-low-AIP route is a valid way to play, but I think taking 8-15 worlds is probably the most fun sort of game for most players and it ought to be the direction the game pushes you in.  Currently I think it pushes you toward 3-5-world-games as you try to learn to play better.

So if it's true that you really can't take more than three worlds and win 9/9 I think that means that a) 9/9 is balanced badly and b) low-AIP strategies are OP if they can succeed where more "normal" approaches absolutely cannot.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2012, 04:08:42 am »
Just based on my personal experience:

With MKIII Harvesters, I never run out of resources, even on the highest difficulties and extra challenges thrown in there as well.

Without MKIII Harvesters, it's a constant struggle for my life, even when I attempt to replace those with upgraded Econ Command Stations instead.

The main point I want to make is that the people who say Econ Command Stations are equivalent to MKII and III Harvesters don't know what they're talking about.  The overall defensive/mobility loss from not having a Logistical or Military Orbital Command is absolutely devastating on higher difficulties.  It may not matter on difficulty 7, but that's beside the point.

I have made my own self-imposed rule not to use upgrade Harvesters because they make the game so easy and non-enjoyable.  When I use them, I don't feel like I have to conserve my resources or protect my investments whatsoever, and I can even just crank my Starships out when they are dying willy nilly.  That's not a good economy balance standpoint in my opinion.  Without upgraded Harvesters, I have a hard time building my Starship Fleet at all, much less replacing them like crazy girlfriends. 

I don't necessarily think MKII and III Harvesters need to be removed from the game BUT, I would like to see them nerfed in some way to put them on par with Econ Command Stations.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing them removed from the game, but it seems like the general consensus is that people want them to stay, so I'm cool with that.  I just think they have to be nerfed to be on par with Econ Comm Stations, which means a massive nerf in some way.  I like the idea of removing the starting resource nodes on the Homeworld.

Keep in mind that I generally don't play FS, so I can't comment on the economic balance portion of that.  This is all concerning the main game for me.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 04:10:23 am by Wingflier »
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2012, 04:45:44 am »
but even >9 (or maybe even 9), you feel economic pressure.
If I unlock MarkIII Harvesters early in the game in my 10/10 games I often have "too much" resources. I need MarkIII Harvesters mid/late game or when waves are +1200 ships.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2012, 05:39:05 am »
I think we're again running into the issue that having the AI's physical strength vary so much makes balance discussions extremely hard. For comparison, at difficulties of 7 or 8 you can get away with MkI harvesters. Physical strength is always the least interesting factor in a difficulty change and has the most potential for screwing the balance up (e.g. PN03 on the GameCube was trivially easy on low difficulty because you could gun enemies down before they could start their attack pattern and that includes bosses if you used all your super attacks!). It's doubly problematic in an RTS where your options to avoid damage are very limited (in action games an increase of enemy firepower just means you can't afford messing up as much when dodging, in AI War that directly translates to dying more). It would probably be easier to balance if the physical strength of the AI (or at least its basic options) remained identical on all difficulties and higher difficulties just gave the AI more options and made it much easier to anger the AI. At lower difficulties you kinda lose the feeling that you need to keep a low profile and shouldn't anger the AI with the current balance, almost like the real game doesn't start until diff 9 or so (8 is the highest I played and it doesn't feel like I need to put that much thought into staying low, just don't trigger unnecessary AIP increases and everything's fine).

Also yeah, the free energy is a problem too. One factor is that the baseline you can plonk on every planet used to be Mk I and II reactors because putting a MkIII on every planet would tank your economy but the new system's plonk-everywhere generators are on par with a full set of MkI-III. Basically MkIIIs used to be the "I'll pay for more energy" option and from what I saw of other players stacking multiple reactors on a planet was the desperation option that the matter converters now mimic. Also command station and harvester outputs got roughly doubled.

So the base economy was buffed while the AIP response got tougher, now people are completely unwilling to cap an extra planet for the economy.

I think at very least the home command should not get an output boost, only the settlements and pods. Those scale with difficulty so you don't get quite as much of an insane surplus at lower (7ish) difficulties. Those difficulties are easy enough without buffing their economy even more.

Offline Minotaar

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Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2012, 05:42:36 am »
...
Well, I'll present my own (pretty much completely opposite) personal experience, mostly based on the last 10/10 game I played (with no superweapons or champion).

Now I use mk3 Harversters because they give me an economic boost when I need it most, and that is at the first minute. I rely on my starships a lot, and it's just not feasible to build them early without economic support. If I could have 2-3 Distribution Nodes in close vicinity every game, it would probably be enough for the initial buildup, but that doesn't happen very often. Lots of turrets are also needed to deal with the mk2 waves almost from 30 AIP.
Moving into midgame, of course, as you run out of things to build and don't lose them at the same rate, you begin to build up a bank. I don't consider this a 'bad' thing, as it has its own strategic implications. Having a bank obviously allows you to build mercenaries to boost your fleet at a critical time (it's likely going to be a one-shot boost if it's bad enough for you to commit this reserve), you can invest into fortresses (this was not really an option for me due to energy constraints) or you can keep it and use it as a 1-up, because this is AI War and things happen, and you wish that these three caps of turrets were over there instead.
You can say "oh, you get all of these nice things, with no drawback? Must be nice." Well, as nice as it is, I still had my economy floored for significant chunks of time, I had FOUR caps of fleetships unbuilt most of the game because I felt I'd rather save the money (okay that's more the Leeches' and Rippers' fault being what they are), and most of all, I was constantly pressured by not having enough STUFF to defend everything at the same and also attack. Caught in a deepstrike 4 hops out while a wave announces? Better hope you can get back home in 90 seconds. CPA happens? Have fun distributing your 500 ships between your six planets. Most of these problems can be solved by throwing money at them, but it's horribly inefficient, and if the money isn't there once, there's nothing you can really do. If you have that 9k knowledge invested in units, you don't have a lot of money, but it is much more efficiently spent.

Having said all of that, do I think nothing needs ot be done? No. Econ stations are not really a viable alternative to harvesters at this point, assuming you want economy. And even if you don't want to invest in economy, you likely want to upgrade harvesters just so you can get that early boost. The early game problems are solvable by increasing starting resources, reliable distribution node seeding, or increasing homeworld production outside of harvesters.  But to be a good mid-late game option, econ stations need a unique benefit, since harvesters allow you to build other types of stations.  The mk3 harvester production should probably be slightly decreased as well, since they do feel a bit too powerful at times.

To wrap it up, here's a resource graph from the game I was referring to, which I made because I was curious how it would look like, only up to 4.5 hours, because the stats seemingly broke after that (or maybe I ate a trojan node). Regardless, I think it's a pretty good illustraion to what I've been saying.


Offline TechSY730

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Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2012, 06:24:17 am »
I wonder if maybe the AI strength over AIP grows a bit too quickly on higher difficulties. As mentioned, this combined with how you can now get about as much as you need from just a few planets thanks to economic upgrades, means that more planets are rarely worth it.

However, the AI still needs to be able with ultra low AIP games and not look like an idiot (part of that is making ultra-low AIP games harder to pull off by giving players less for taking fewer planets)

However, we want to make this hard beyond just wall cost time, even at ultra-low AIP games (where neither you nor the AI gets much)

Ugh, it is so complicated, and it all ties together.

I will admit that I sort of agree that the difference between difficulty 7 and 9 is rather crazy high at the moment. I wonder if something like difficulty 5 could become what 7 is now, and redistribute the difficulties from there (this would be very, very painful code wise though. Wouldn't it?)

EDIT: Minotaar's graph is interesting. Assuming his graph generalizes to most other games,  economy overabundance, if it happens, seems to be a mostly midgame thing. This seems to line up with my experiances too.

Also, how did you get that graph? Did you figure out the format of the stats tracking in the save files?
These sorts of graphs are why I hope the in-game graphs come back at some point, they are magnificent at analyzing game flow, game pacing, and how different stages of the game play out.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 06:29:40 am by TechSY730 »

Offline Minotaar

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Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2012, 07:26:01 am »
Also, how did you get that graph? Did you figure out the format of the stats tracking in the save files?
These sorts of graphs are why I hope the in-game graphs come back at some point, they are magnificent at analyzing game flow, game pacing, and how different stages of the game play out.

No, just manually from autosaves. I had the idea to dig into the save files, but I have almost no experience with that kind of thing. Also I assume the save file only has the current stats, so you'd need to process a bunch of saves anyway.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2012, 07:47:27 am »
Overall I think it's fine if Golems tank your economy, they're superweapons after all. Maybe reduce the AIP hit if the economy makes building them difficult. Hey, why not add a wave multiplier to broken golems (but not working ones)? That way the construction process might be somewhat of a challenge instead of just netflix again.

Offline zoutzakje

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Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2012, 09:17:06 am »
ah yes the harvesters. Because economy is such an important aspect of the game and since everyone has a different playstyle, I'm not surprised to see so many different opinions about whether they're overpowered or not.

Let me ask the people who often still have their resources drained with mk III harvesters: How did you manage before the harvester upgrade?
I don't mean to sound harsh, but... If you play with Golems and other superweapons and actually use them, your opinion on this topic really doesn't matter. My opinion on this topic doesn't matter. You can't balance the economy of the game based on experience with Supertoys. That's not gonna work. If you can complete trader troys, either your economy is overpowered or the difficulty you play at is too low. You're not supposed to be able to build them. Maybe the smaller ones like Counter Spy (and then only far in the mid-game), but people building SuperForts is absurd. A gamechanger like a golem should take ages to repair, not a few minutes (or sometimes even seconds).
My personal playstyle involves taking a lot of planets (usually 30+ in a 100 planet game) and I often unlock mk III harvesters for both as well. How come I'm often still drained of resources you ask? Because I got a bunch of golems, a few trader toys, about 20 martyrs of different marks, etc. Stuff I couldn't build before the harvester upgrades. With this economy, and with Superweapons turned on, high AIP games simply aren't punishing enough.

A few people should play a true vanilla game on 7/7. All expansions and ship types are allowed, but no minor factions or champions or AI plots or anything. Just plain and simple. 80 planets, simple or realistic map type and go. Finish the game twice with the exact same settings, once with mk III harvesters and once without any harvester upgrades, and then discuss the economy. Then we might actually get some results.

Offline Eternaly_Lost

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Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2012, 09:54:10 am »
Let me ask the people who often still have their resources drained with mk III harvesters: How did you manage before the harvester upgrade?

Hulu Plus + a PS3 with a pile of games and a TV next to my machine waiting for things to get built. I still have to do this currently as well every now and then, but not as much as I used to.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but... If you play with Golems and other superweapons and actually use them, your opinion on this topic really doesn't matter.


If you are counting Fallen Spire in that, I strongly disagree. Fallen Spire is meant to be a valid and different way to play the game. Fallen Spire is basically all out war and you will need the resources to fight a all out war. However, I do see were you are coming with on the whole 7/7 without golems and trader toys, but I disgree that any use them is considered excessive.

A golem or two, or maybe a trader toy or two should be reasonable on an average game economy, Several if you have a very strong economy and if you are going fallen Spire you will need everything you can get because it is full out war. Mid-late game Fallen Spire I often see Golem die in about 2 seconds or less if they are not under at least a dozen Force Fields.


Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2012, 10:30:51 am »
Here's a thought:

1) Increase the resource production of the Home Command Station.  Significantly.  Like +100 M+C/s significant.  This will cause a large bump in what the player can do early game, and what the player can do in high difficulties with low AIP (i.e. reducing the tedium of the early game and making low-conquest more viable).
2) Remove the harvester upgrades.
3) Add "Spire Harvesters" which are effectively Mk3 harvesters (maybe even a slight buff, due to the constraints on cities), which can only be built from Spire cities.

That allows for the extra income needed for the FS campaign, without bloating the economy for "not FS."

Golems, I think, need to stay "expensive" but their costs can be adjusted after whatever other changes are made, so that they're expensive, but not OMGexpensive.

On the energy side:

1) Allow "1 per planet" not "1 per planet per player."  This will reduce the amount of spare energy multiple players will have in a coop game, rather than bloating their energy income relative to their M+C
2) Not multiplying their output in multihomeworld games.
That's not a bad thought at all. I'm all for this.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2012, 10:33:28 am »
I wonder if maybe the AI strength over AIP grows a bit too quickly on higher difficulties.

Hehe.  Been a while since that has come up.
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Offline zoutzakje

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Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2012, 10:53:11 am »
my bad Eternaly Lost, I didn't mean FS. Somehow I never consider FS stuff Superweapons. Only the strongest ship type maybe. FS stuff is expensive but you can also get extra income from building cities so I'm not too concerned about that. FS is perfectly doable without mk III harvesters.
I guess I'm more talking about Golems, Spirecraft and Champs. Most Spirecraft has yet to reveal it's true potential, but martyrs are definitely superweapons. Quite pricy ones too. No way I could have build 20 of them in the early midgame before harvester upgrades.
And yes, a few golems is reasonable, like some of the lower cost trader toys, which is also what I meant. But I don't think you should be able to repair those golems in a matter of seconds. Repairing only a bit of it, then using your resources for something urgent, then repairing a bit again, keeping it protected the whole time... That's how it should be. Now the low cost golems get auto repaired by your FRD engies and you hardly notice it because your resources can take the blow. Early - Early midgame economies with mk III harvesters can handle botnet repair in 5-10 mins? Even if it's 15 mins, that's still a bit too fast for a golem that can pretty much cover your entire defense in most cases.

Because you can get all these superweapons so very easily compared to how it used to be (and not just superweapons, I'm talking about the very first 5-10 mins of a campaign too. I don't think we're supposed to be able to build full mk I caps of all triangle ships and your bonus ship before the first wave), it takes away a lot of the challenge of the game. I honestly think that, when using mk III harvesters, taking a lot of planets in a game actually makes it easier than taking just a few. If this is true then it kinda beats the whole point of AI war.
I remember voting for the harvester upgrades myself, but I now realize I shouldn't have done that. I have no ideas on how to fix it though. I'll just play without harvester upgrades from now on, to force myself to get used to the old ways again.

Oh I just noticed MoonShine Fox his quote of Diazo's post. Not a bad idea at all Diazo. It would make the early game easier than normal, but still harder than with all the harvester upgrades right from the start. And it would probably keep the rest of the game where it's supposed to be. I like it.