Author Topic: Discussion: Player Economy  (Read 17107 times)

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Discussion: Player Economy
« on: November 16, 2012, 06:37:10 pm »
After reading through and participating in several threads, the clear impression I seem to be getting is that player economy is overpowered right now (short of handicaps of course). It is not just a problem of people playing on too low of AI difficulties, it seems to be an issue all the way up to about 9.


This includes energy and metal+crystal.
(for the purposes of this discussion, ignore the influence of champions and nebula reward imbalances, as that is a separate "can of worms" already pointed out)

The purpose of this thread is to hopefully centralize the discussion some.
As energy and metal+crystal are somewhat intertwined (or at least used to be before the new energy system), and they both deal with how much the player can afford to produce and maintain, I am making this thread for both.

For the metal+crystal, the predominant view seems to be that higher Mk. harvesters are still OP (not just in comparison to econ stations, but even overall). How to "nerf" them is still under discussion though.
Some popular ideas I have seen so far are:
-Remove Mk. II and Mk. III harvesters all together, and go back to the single Mk harvester system of old. Reblance the MK. I harvesters (now the only harvesters) accordingly.
-Remove the extra spots the HW gets, aka, bring the number of harvester spots on the HW from 8-12 to 4-6. (aka, half the number of spots), but increase the resource production of the pre-seeded buildings accordingly. This will nerf early game higher Mk. harvesters pretty hard
-Add an energy cost to the higher Mk. harvesters (which would imply energy balance would need to be dealt with for this to work)
-Add a cap to the higher Mk. harvesters
-Simply nerf the economic output of higher mark harvesters...again

For the energy, there is less of a consensus. However, it seems a popular view is that during 1 - 2 or 3 planets in a single player, single HW game, energy is about right, but beyond that, there is just too much energy. Also, that multi-HW and co-op completley throw off even this little bit of energy balance. As with the harvesters, how to "nerf" them is still under discussion.
As this one has not been discussed as much, I have only really seen one idea:
-Reduce the output of the energy collector (the one that costs no resources per second), but reduce the resource per second cost of the converters


Also, how these scale in co-op and multi-HW games is also up for discussion.


Thoughts? Comments? Ideas?

Keep in mind ideas are not exclusive, some elements of multiple ideas can be chosen.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 07:01:22 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline Eternaly_Lost

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 336
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2012, 06:47:43 pm »
I am going to repost what I said in another thread here:

It's perennially amusing to me to have some players saying that they're rolling in thousands of m+c income surplus and millions of energy, and others saying they're almost always on famine econ and take over an hour to refleet and never have enough energy to use starships and/or forts.  And everyone's got a straight face.

Running Golems and Fallen Spire on 9/9 means that even if I am playing at +300% I am always short on resources. The ships take so much to build/repair that it ends up that way. It a issue when playing that way, you can spend more on two ships, then most players would spend on their entire fleets outside of Fallen Spire. Sort the player by what they play, and I think you find everyone with too much resources and no clue what to do with it play without Fallen Spire/Golems, and those with too little resources and energy are running with Fallen Spire and Golems.

A solution very well might be to make a resource golem that produces resources so you can afford to repair those golems and to buff Spire Habitation Resource production. Otherwise you trying to balance production of things were building can cost 2 million resources per ship and repair costs of 2 million per ship are not unheard of, with whole fleets that cost maybe half a million.

Basically what this means to me, is that any nerf to the Base economy without incressing Fallen Spire Economy in some way will just add more wall time for me, as I wait for ships that cost 2M resources to get built.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2012, 06:49:32 pm »
I realized through other posts that this effect is HUGELY dependent on other options turned on.
Like during Fallen Spire or heavy use of golems, metal+crystal shortages can start becoming a real problem, even with maxed out economy upgrades. (and on golems medium, energy shortages can start becoming a problem too)
Without those sorts of things, economy seems to be much more like the overpowered nature discussed in the original post.


Which brings up some good questions.
Is the disparity of costs between these factions and the base game too great?
If so, should the optional stuff come down, or the base game go up in costs? Should effectiveness go up or down accordingly as well?
If a nerf to the base game economy happens, should their be buffs in the econ bonuses of these optional factions?

EDIT: @Eternaly_Lost: Yep, it was your post I was referring to. You just ninja'd me in this post. :)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 06:55:27 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2012, 07:00:01 pm »
I'm going to try to finish up my 9.6 game this weekend.  I currently am playing a near base game and I don't see the volume of issues other players are commenting on.  On rare occasions I have some surplus but it's  definitely not as overwhelming as others are seeing, so I'm wondering if it's end game totals that are skewing perception or if I'm just that much more aggressive with my resource usage during  midgame.

I should be able to have some hard numbers when I'm done with that and hopefully can debate my perspective from firmer ground.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Lancefighter

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,440
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 08:04:11 pm »
Id like to make a post here without major content so it shows up in my 'new replies to my posts' filter. I honestly am not sure what I can say on the matter outside of what I've said elsewhere.
Ideas? Suggestions? Concerns? Bugs to be squashed? Report them on the Mantis Bugtracker!

Author of the Dyson Project and the Spire Gambit

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 08:12:10 pm »
Just FYI, you can click notify to get updates as if you have posted.

Offline Faulty Logic

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,194
  • Bane of the AI
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 08:13:40 pm »
What is this "resource/energy surplus" of which you speak?

I never really have enough of either, unless playing FS.
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2012, 08:35:50 pm »
Seems like AI difficulty is also strongly tied to players' experiences. I wonder why even difficulty 8 you can see an overabundance of economy, but even >9 (or maybe even 9), you feel economic pressure.
Difference in playstyles? Is the "distance" between 8 and 9 really that great?
Maybe what someone else (don't remember who) said is correct, the "granularity" of difficulties from 1-6 is too much for how much they differ, and the granularity between 8 and 10 is not enough. (aka, the game is too "loaded" (bad term, I know) for >7 difficulty)

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2012, 08:37:47 pm »
Seems like AI difficulty is also strongly tied to players' experiences. I wonder why even difficulty 8 you can see an overabundance of economy, but even >9 (or maybe even 9), you feel economic pressure.
Difference in playstyles? Is the "distance" between 8 and 9 really that great?
It's probably mainly based on the fact that on 7-8 you can take 10 planets and not be sweating.  If you take 10 planets on 9.3 you're going to not appreciate that AIP.

You're probably also taking more losses on your defenses (and offenses, for that matter).  To the point that you can get into a bit of an economic death spiral where you can't pay to replace all your turrets/etc before the next attack hits.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Aeson

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2012, 08:42:01 pm »
My impression currently is that economy is about right, but that the relatively recent change from paying for almost all energy to not paying for much or any energy is skewing the views of long term players. Someone mentioned the cost of operating all those energy reactors that we used to have to build, and having had to pay resources to operate them really was a significant drain on the player's economy, even if it wasn't usually noticed, and when the price paid for energy disappeared, in combination with the buffs to harvesters, people who had been playing for a long time suddenly saw an enormous increase in their resource income. You were spending 67 metal and 67 crystal (134 total) for 125 energy per system (assuming one of each reactor in every system) prior to 5.040, and gaining 80/120/220 resources (both types summed together) per planet, assuming that the current harvester income numbers are valid at least back to 5.033, which meant that a set of energy reactors caused an average planet to be a net drain on your economy with Mark I (-57 resources/s) or Mark II (-17 resources/s) harvesters, and a modest boost to your economy with Mark III harvesters (+86 resources/s), not counting any income or cost from the command station.

The player base is probably still used to having an economy somewhat like what I described above, and so with the disappearance of the energy reactor and the addition of the energy collector, we feel as though we are swimming in resources when we're playing in a similar manner to the way we had played for years prior to these changes. Just looking at the above, it's like I'm starting games with the resource income that I'd end games with under the old system, and any harvester upgrades I unlock greatly boost that. Moreover, in the old system you would often run into situations where either metal or crystal was in particularly short supply, since resource nodes are not necessarily evenly distributed but the resource costs of energy reactors were evenly split, which meant that you'd often run out of one resource long before you ran out of the other, and activating the manufactories to allow you to use your remaining stockpile of whatever resource you had more of meant that you'd run down your resources even more quickly than you were doing so before (which is still the case, and even if nothing else remains the same, this should be unchanged).

For that matter, before upgrades of harvesters were introduced, your economy was entirely reliant on what are now the Mark I harvesters, which means that players who have been playing since before harvester upgrades were introduced learned to play and began forming their preferred strategies on economies far weaker than what we have now, and that period when they were learning how to play probably has a reflection in some of the comments on how strong the player economy now is. I know that a lot of the impressions I have of the AI War player economy come from comparisons with the economy that I remember from when I first started playing AI War, and, despite the changes in the player economy, the things I learned about the game economy at that point in time still have some degree of influence over the unlock choices I make from the start of the game. I'm a bit doubtful that economic upgrades would be quite as popular as they seem to be currently (based on forum posts) if everyone on the forum were just starting to play the game, because many of the older players are used to a weak economy, which at its strongest was similar to what the current economy is at its weakest (until you start throwing in energy reactors, but I have only rarely needed energy reactors, and that's usually only if I am not taking many planets, or I've built up a large starship fleet), and so jump at the chance to improve it, and as a result we get situations where people are swimming in resources because the playstyle that they developed pre-harvester upgrades or especially pre-energy collector to conserve their forces and allow their economies breathing room between having to rebuild the fleet or work on major construction projects.

That's not to say that there are some situations where the current economy gets excessive, but a part of that is from the champions, and a part of that is from having other things active at the same time. As an example of excessive economy, in my current game, I have a total income of 4028 metal and 4728 crystal (currently at about 1800 and 2400 due to some expenses - I might be building a radar jammer II on one of my worlds) with about 130000 spare energy (full caps of six Mark I fleet ships, Scouts I and II, and all Mark I starships, plus however many spire ships six shipyards supports, and the stuff from the nebulae), and I have ten worlds (and four nebulas - Gray Spire, Mourner, EER with an extra IMT facility from before the glitch that caused extras of those to spawn on load was fixed, and Shattered Pillar) and three spire cities (two habitation modules per city, not that it's necessary), and a total of 17 metal and 24 crystal harvesters, with all six Mark III economic stations built and one Mark II economic command station, with Mark III harvesters on each. This, naturally, is a completely excessive economy and is capable of funding just about anything I currently can do (including, at one point, simultaneously building three Mark I ion cannons, a Spire City, and funding repairs and ship replacements while holding off an exo-wave) without the risk of the economy going under. This particular game was started perhaps in 5.9 or so, though I'm not really sure. It's an example of the extremes you can reach if you focus on economic upgrades and get relatively average resource points on your planets, and I rather suspect that many of the players complaining about the strength of the economy do something like this.

First thing to note about that, though, is that I'm getting 1800 metal and 1800 crystal from my Spire Cities alone, which means that without Fallen Spire my income would be about half what it is currently. I'm also getting the resources from five nebula facilities and a Rebel Human Colony, which together represent another several hundred of each resource. So, an equivalent game with no extra AI plots or minor factions or champions on would have me sitting at about 2000 metal/s and 2600 crystal/s, which is less excessive of an economy and still represents 18000 knowledge spent on the economy, out of the about 40,000 knowledge I have access to off of ten planets, which could probably have been better spent, but I'm planning on taking over most of the galaxy anyways - what else is Fallen Spire for?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 08:45:24 pm by Aeson »

Offline Pluto

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2012, 08:55:53 pm »
Playing against the higher difficulty AI's, I just burn through income like no other.  If I'm passing 300k, it's because I've paused everything and forgot to un-pause it once whatever critical thing I was building finished.

Admittedly I'm playing with a mostly starship fleet, which tends towards the expensive side, but..  still, yes.  I struggle with income consistently.  This isn't to say I couldn't make harder choices; I'm generally building most everything I can in the peaceful moments, and in the drastic moments everything gets paused while I focus on getting a couple extra HBC's for when the champions come rushing in.  But, I'm never at max.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 08:57:32 pm by Pluto »

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2012, 10:37:32 pm »
Here's a thought:

1) Increase the resource production of the Home Command Station.  Significantly.  Like +100 M+C/s significant.  This will cause a large bump in what the player can do early game, and what the player can do in high difficulties with low AIP (i.e. reducing the tedium of the early game and making low-conquest more viable).
2) Remove the harvester upgrades.
3) Add "Spire Harvesters" which are effectively Mk3 harvesters (maybe even a slight buff, due to the constraints on cities), which can only be built from Spire cities.

That allows for the extra income needed for the FS campaign, without bloating the economy for "not FS."

Golems, I think, need to stay "expensive" but their costs can be adjusted after whatever other changes are made, so that they're expensive, but not OMGexpensive.

On the energy side:

1) Allow "1 per planet" not "1 per planet per player."  This will reduce the amount of spare energy multiple players will have in a coop game, rather than bloating their energy income relative to their M+C
2) Not multiplying their output in multihomeworld games.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2012, 10:56:23 pm »
3) Add "Spire Harvesters" which are effectively Mk3 harvesters (maybe even a slight buff, due to the constraints on cities), which can only be built from Spire cities.
Any strong reason to do that rather than buffing the current resource income from the spire hab center city structures?
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2012, 11:01:25 pm »
3) Add "Spire Harvesters" which are effectively Mk3 harvesters (maybe even a slight buff, due to the constraints on cities), which can only be built from Spire cities.
Any strong reason to do that rather than buffing the current resource income from the spire hab center city structures?

I wasn't sure they did already.  So no, no strong reason.  They could be buffed instead.
The only impact would be that a spire city would generate the same amount of resources regardless of local conditions, vs. varying slightly.

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: Discussion: Player Economy
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2012, 12:24:02 am »
Part of the reason I think the economy spirals so quickly is the lack of costs energy collectors have.

Before, every energy collector had costs. So while the player economy would grow as more planets were taken, the decision to get more energy would stifle depending on how much energy was desired. The player could decide to have "base" energy of moderate cost and energy, more efficient but less net energy, or get bloated energy at great cost. It was common for the first few MK I harvesters  on a planet's income to be eaten by energy needs.

The amount of energy given efficiently has both risen and is as efficient as it can be possibly be, making the "bloated energy" threshold higher now. In return, the costs of "bloated energy" is higher.  This is supposed to be because there is no on/off switch for energy usage, so you need more cushion to accommodate the very real effects of not being able to counter energy via micro. However, in practice, such energy cushion's need is finicky. Normally the lose of a planet is accompanied by the loss of defenses, fleets, etc, so to loss energy is a more limited occurance since it tends to happen that dropping energy supply occurs with dropping energy needs.

The solution to streamlining energy has removed the more granular cost of energy. In most solutions, the cost of energy is now 0.  Since energy needs don't rise as fast as energy supply barring minor factions, combined with the direct increase in resources, make for a much more rapid increase in planet's economies, both energy and resources.
Life is short. Have fun.