Discussion: Player Economy

[Delwack]

Some stats from my current game:
I have no expansions enabled.  This means no superweapons period, the end.  Due to this, I focused primarily on fleeting. 

Edit: 7/7 easier type computers, 18 controlled worlds, 23 worlds 'taken out of AI control, including one AI homeworld (so 79000 knowledge total, mostly in MKIII fleetships), 439 AIP, so this is near the end.  I lost this one due to a few mistakes on defense, although incidentally, though I was in a position to potentially win this one.  (I believe in playing iron-man.  no save scumming >.<)

MkIII/IV unlocks:
Fighter
Bomber
Frigate
Bulletproof
Shield Bearer
Raptor
Space plane

MKII:
Gatling Laser

Total income: 2871M 2761C; 18 planets controlled. (total material income of 5632/sec) [mk 3 harvesters, no command station unlocks at all except warp jammer, 5 jammers operational right now, but I've not included the jammers, I only used raw positive flow income numbers, no other resource -'s.]

I usually use caps of MK III's and IV's on offense, caps of Mk I's and II's and starships on defense to augment statics (all MkI's) + miniforts + FF Mk I + HFF Mk I.


Mark IV refleet:
Tiangle ships:
Fighter (115200, 115200)
Bomber (825600, 115200)
M.Frigate (115200, 576000)

Total: (1056000, 806400) = 1862400 materials.  With my current economy 330s (5.5 min) to rebuild just the triangle mark IV's.

Mark IV bonus (specific to my game obviously, note all teh wiki costs disagree with the game tooltip, I am using the game tooltip costs.):
Bulletproof: (404800, 58080)
Shield Bearer: (57600, 177600)
Raptor: (94080, 460800)
Space plane: (154800, 154800)

Total: (711280, 851280) = 1562560 materials.  With my current economy 277s (4.6 min) to refleet just the bonus mark IV ships (4.6 minutes.)

To refleet all mark IV's takes 607 seconds minimum. 

Mk III refleet:
Tiangle ships:
Fighter (76800, 76800)
Bomber (556800, 76800)
M.Frigate (76800, 384000)

Total: (710400, 537600) = 1248000 materials.  With my current economy, 221s (3.7 min) to refleet just the triangle Mk III's. 

Mark III bonus:
Bulletproof: (272800, 35200)
Shield Bearer: (38400, 120000)
Raptor: (63360, 307200)
Space plane: (103200, 103200)

Total: (477760, 565600) = 1043360 materials.  With my current economy, 185s (3.1 min) to refleet just the bonus Mk III's.

A total wipe of the offensive fleet (Mk III's + IV's) here costs a total of 5716320 (5.7M) materials, This takes 1014 seconds to refleet, or  17 minutes.

Total Actual metal: 2955440  -> actual metal generated in 1014 seconds: 2911194
Total Actual Crystal: 2760880 -> actual crystal generated in 1014 seconds: 2799654
Crystal<->Metal conversion has no effect on time, in essence here since the numbers line up well and does not add time.  Note that a cap of shield bearers are significnatly cheaper compared to most other ships.  If I had another 'dps ship' in there, costs would be even higher. 

On defense, at 440 AIP, I'll probably lose half the MK I + Mk II fleet caps, one or both of the miniforts, and almost all the turrets (1/4th of the Mk I caps per world; defending 4 worlds total), 2 Mk I FF and 2 MkI hardened FF (I am defending 4 worlds, and the defenses are spread relatively evenly amongst them, with the Mk I and Mk II ships respond to the 'crisis' as necessary.)  I'll also typically lose 5 Mk II engineers and 5 rebuilders over the course of a fight. 
Mk I turrets (no unlocks at all):
Note:  1/4th caps used for all turret calcs (24 for most, 12 for light/flak).

Basic (24): (28800, 19200)
Sniper (24): (14400, 72000)
MLRS (24): (43200, 9600)
Missile (24): (38400, 14400)
Laser (24): 9600, 43200
Lightning (12): 14400, 33600
Flak (12): 48000, 9600
Tractor (24): 28800, 144000

Miniforts (2) (100000, 80000)
FF/FFH MkI (4): (16000, 80000)

Total statics rebuild cost: (341600, 505600) = 847200 (.8M) materials.  With my current economy, 150 seconds (2.5 minutes) to rebuild static D.

Defensive fleet loses:  I assume I lose half of my Mk I and Mk II's during battle.  It's kind of hard to tell because I have dynamic rebuilding going on.  Losses may be higher or lower depending on how long the fight drags out. (note to simplify things becuase I am getting tired, I will assume MK I's cost half that of Mk II's; this is generally but not universally true [e.g. bulletproof fighter has metal cost of MkI 780, MkII 1580.):

Fleet ships:
Fighter: (28800, 28800)
Bomber: (201600, 28800)
M. Frigate: (28800, 144000)
L. Gattling: (40800, 40800) (272 cap)
Bulletproof: (104280, 14520) (88 cap)
Shield Bearer: (14400, 43200) (24 cap)
Raptor: (23040, 115200) 
Sapce Plane: (38700, 38700) (172 cap)

Rebuilder (5): (5000, 10000)
Engineer Mk II(5): (10000, 5000)

Total defensive fleet rebuild cost: (495420, 469020) = 964440 (.96M) materials.  With my current economy, 171 seconds (2.5 minutes) to rebuild static D.

Total defensive rebuild: 1811640 (1.8M) materials.  with my current economy,  321 seconds (5.3 minutes) to rebuild static D.

Typically I'll move out to attack, and then the AI will flood in behind me.  I'll defend with standard loses described above, and in the worst case scenario I'll lose my whole offensive fleet.  Total time to rebuild all offense and defense: 7527960 (7.5M) materials, requiring  1336 seconds (22.2 minutes) at my current econ.  The AI will usually have attacked again through freed threat at least once or twice in that 22 minute period, adding another 5 minutes to rebuild all my statics (partially rebuilt-offensive fleet on D helps clean stuff up much faster with significantly fewer losses, so I assume half of std losses).  This brings me up to 27 minutes before I'm ready to move out again. 

Edit: I'll try to look through another game i have later, if I have a chance.  I was at ~450 AIP in this particular one (one home command dead), and it was starting to strain me pretty bad. 
Edit2: didn't inclue starship losses on D.  They typically aren't too bad though because engineers dynamically repair them.  do lose a few here and there though. 
Edit3: I had some fabs (2 i think) that were adding cores to the offensive fleet, but I lost them and don't have a save where I had them.  Adding them in would also slightly increase refleet time.  I don't think it was that significant though. 

[Aeson]

expanding the size of that bank, even if it's just the opportunity to build my own distribution nodes as emergency funds.

I like this idea, and it seems like it'd be relatively easily implemented, since all it would take is the creation of a relatively expensive structure with a high percentage of its build cost returned on being scrapped.

[keith.lamothe]

A total wipe of the offensive fleet (Mk III's + IV's) here costs a total of 5716320 (5.7M) materials, This takes 1014 seconds to refleet, or  17 minutes.

Total defensive rebuild: 1811640 (1.8M) materials.  with my current economy,  321 seconds (5.3 minutes) to rebuild static D.

Interesting.  Sounds pretty much right on the times; you took a lot of AIP to get 18 planets and you can rebuild defensively pretty quickly and refleet offensively without over-much delay, and that's assuming nothing stored in the bank and just your 5632/sec combined income, right?

[Delwack]

A total wipe of the offensive fleet (Mk III's + IV's) here costs a total of 5716320 (5.7M) materials, This takes 1014 seconds to refleet, or  17 minutes.

Total defensive rebuild: 1811640 (1.8M) materials.  with my current economy,  321 seconds (5.3 minutes) to rebuild static D.

Interesting.  Sounds pretty much right on the times; you took a lot of AIP to get 18 planets and you can rebuild defensively pretty quickly and refleet offensively without over-much delay, and that's assuming nothing stored in the bank and just your 5632/sec combined income, right?

Yes.  If I manage to store 1M/1M, then that reduces the time obvious if I have engineers making rates negative.  2M of stored means I can rebuild all my defenses instantly or ~ 1/3 of the offensive fleet.  If rebuilding the offensive fleet, the 'remainder' only costs 3716320, taking 660 seconds (11 minutes) with 1M/1M stored. 

I'd like to be able to store more so I can play cost-effective defense for a while (maybe up to 2M each (4M total) at this planet size, or 2/3rds of an offensive refleet? or all my D + 1/3rd of an offensive refleet?)

Time wise it wouldn't change anything, but would reduce my 'vulnerability' time after wiping, and allow me to power-engi ships back out for an emergency defense.  AIP is on 1/30 btw for this game, so each wipe essentially 'costs' me 1AIP if I don't die. 

Note: game time is 12:57:57. 

Sounds like playing a 'fleeter' is about where you want it to be. 

[TechSY730]

Woa, since when did posters become allowed to lock and delete their own threads?

[Wingflier]

THAT'S IT, DELETE THE WHOLE THREAD.

Because F you, discussion ;p

[Mánagarmr]

THAT'S IT, DELETE THE WHOLE THREAD.

Because F you, discussion ;p

Nuke it from orbit?

[Draco18s]

THAT'S IT, DELETE THE WHOLE THREAD.

Because F you, discussion ;p

Nuke it from orbit?

The only way to be sure.

Unless it's a hunter-killer thread.

[Wanderer]

9/9 vs. 9.6/9.6 is a HUGE difference here, even in the early game.  Some of it's due to me picking maws instead of something that constantly (and comparatively uselessly) went head to head with massive numbers of tanks (reprocessors), but yeaaaah, I'm floating in Econ on 9/9 and I'm in the middle of assaulting a MK IV after punting a MK III out the window.

Hell, I was able to defend the homeworld with a handful of gravs, 20 snipers, 20 LRMs, and 25 basics from both 'introductory' waves.  My fleet was able to go out and do stuff in the beginning.

Needless to say, that's not something I'm all that familiar with anymore.

At 50 minutes or so I had 2 worlds and most of the whipping boy built, along with a few warp gate pops to single-entry the homelands.

I didn't have any significant issues until I'd blown up the raids, was rebuilding a bit of fleet after stuffing it into a system and eating ions, and was still finishing up the final turretry on the WB.

At about an hour, I purposely drew out the SF.  They were measly targets.

These two planets are a 4/4 and a 0/4 taken for strategical reasons, and I've ignored a 2/1 and an 0/1 as easy borderworlds and only took the III/IV.  I'm getting 440 mats from the first and 220 from the second, and homeworld's a 6/6 so 660 there.  Had I Econ III'd I'd have those two up getting 320/world (+ energy) and only 240 off the homeworld from the harvesters.  I'm purposely ignoring the base econ from the structures for this.  I also don't have the energy crunch I'd usually have as I'm not relying on every blasted thing I can possibly build at this point.  I'm waiting for an AIP 73-75 wave to come in so I can try to discuss recovery calculations.  I've just started to bring the mini-forts online.  I'm really having no issue keeping my econ flowing (averaging at ~200k/300k) but I've yet to famine when it wasn't my own doing.

The waves are SLOW.  Wow.

1 hour in, the fifth (maybe fourth, I really need to clear my logs) wave finally gets around to showing up.  A mere 394 ships.  I lost... 'eh... 20 Basic Is?  Negligible losses.

In my opinion, the majority differences about the economic viability/overwhelming value of Harvesters is coming from the diff levels and expectations of use and loss, which Wingflier mentioned but it depends on where you want to balance for 9k in econ boosts vs. having MK IIs of the triangle + bonus ship (give or take 1k).  Econ IIIs (with a bit more worlds) are roughly equivalent of 3/3 worlds, which are above average unless you're hunting for them.  Balance off the starting harvesters and add-ons on the homeworld and even early game wouldn't really notice the difference.

Although, I personally agree with my first sentiment to this discussion.  If you think spending most of your starting K in economy and being able to (more) easily bank for refleets is too powerful, crank up your difficulty.  My personal preference is to throw 4 or 5 MK I fleets at a planet in the same time it'd take to build off the entire MK I/II fleet and use that (it'd be more but you have more defensive rebuilds with the multi-fleets).  However, the MK I/II fleet is probably more effective in the long term, though devastating to rebuild when waves are crashing the gates of your whipping boys.

At this point it's a design decision.  What should 9000 in research K actually DO to an empire?  That's 3 worlds of K.  I personally don't feel the econ rate is overpowered for the price.

Looking over the numbers, however, I need to retract my earlier comparison between Econ Stations and Harvesters, but not for the reasons that you're losing other stations.  Only 6 of the Econ stations are important.  I'd actually prefer to see MK III Econs get uncapped so the IIs aren't underwhelming when you bring Mil/Log IIIs online.  The rest are either fillers in huge empires or they're additional bonuses if you can't find any decent starter worlds nearby in the early game (3/3+ that you can take).  So, are MK III Harvesters overpowered compared to MK III Econ stations.  Well, yes, if you don't care as much about strategical positioning as you do about building your econ.  But mostly because of usage.  A rebalance of the howeworld resources would get rid of any other early game advantage.

To explain why I don't think they're THAT far off each other however, to utilize the 9k I've spent on harvesters effectively to AIP, I need to leave two AI worlds with access to the homeworld, or I soak 40+ AIP for minimal econ gains.  Econ stations allow for more strategical access to roughly equivalent econ, but take up space from something else more 'useful', depending on its location in your supply chain.

[Hearteater]

I've been wondering if maybe Harvester upgrades should be the small empire econ pick.  Instead of upgrading all Harvester, have it only affect your homeworld.  Obviously the K-cost would come down, but it would be the thing you pick to get an early boost, or if running a small empire.  It gives you the flexibility to use whatever CS is best at each of the few planets you take.

Meanwhile, Econ CS upgrades could be the greater econ boost, but require more planets to make work.  Although I also still like the much lower CS upgrade caps (like 1 or 2 for Mark III, maybe 2 or 4 for Mark II) and much greater individual boosts from the higher mark CSs.

[Draco18s]

I've been wondering if maybe Harvester upgrades should be the small empire econ pick.

That's a thought.

[TechSY730]

Although I also still like the much lower CS upgrade caps (like 1 or 2 for Mark III, maybe 2 or 4 for Mark II) and much greater individual boosts from the higher mark CSs.

I approve of this too. Not just for econ CSs, but all CSs.

[KDR_11k]

Not sure about Logistics until they get a serious revamp (right now you need a ton of them to get any effect on your logistics and MkII and III are still searching for a reason to exist) but making Mil IIIs stronger and fewer would only encourage chokepointing even more.

[TechSY730]

Hmm, after the AI inflicted severe losses on me last night, I realized the energy situation actually doesn't seem that far off.

Yea, energy may seem a bit overabundant when all is going well, but even something like a 500000 surplus starts becoming a real issue once you start losing planets. After only 3 planets lost, you are now down to 50000 (150000 * planet). Four planets lost, and you are now in brownout territory. I actually had to start building matter converters after a particularly nasty CPA + exo (which struck around the same time, and went around some of my "side" planets not in the path to my homeworld...well played by the AI).
And if a force if big enough to punch that kind of a hole, you want all the firepower you can get, so you can't really afford to have only 50000 left over, as that won't be enough to "refleet" on the fly.


So I think part of the issue is that our surpless energy may seem to be a lot, but it is not as much as it seems once the AI starts making some progress...

[zoutzakje]

yeah when the tougher champions start to knock on your door while playing against Heroic, you can get brownouts quite fast. Not that it matters though if your playstyle involves taking a lot of planets. You usually don't lose all planets, just a few of them before you can stop whatever AI force is coming at you.