Author Topic: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?  (Read 14356 times)

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2012, 12:08:00 pm »
My big gripe these days is that planets are too much pushovers compared to how they used to be. If you look at some of Chris' REALLY old tutorial vids from AIW 2.x, you'll see that every planet has literally thousands of ships on them, making it necessary for Chris to attack a single guardpost at a time, and be careful not to stir up the entire planet, thus dooming him as they come careening throught he wormhole.

It feels right now that every individual planet isn't as much of a difficult to take goal as they used to be. But, if this is to be buffed, one has also to keep in mind not to make it unnecessarily grindy. It has to be difficult, not easy and grindy.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2012, 12:10:13 pm »
Quote from: Moonshine Fox
Since the discussion came up, I think we still need to discuss the issue and see if improvements can be made. Possible, there are no improvements to be made, because it's quite frankly not needed. But I still think a discussion would give some insights needed.
Oh, I'm pretty sure some improvement on the "tactical blobbing" issue is possible.  I think it's probably on the relatively-small-incremental side, like making "super guardians" (which can't traverse wormholes and thus can't be baited, perhaps) available to the AI under certain circumstances (possibly via AI Plot, or heavily dependent on difficulty or something like that).  You'd at least check to see if one was around and not feed it the stuff that it kills.  Hmm, "feed", maybe give them the "replicates after dealing X damage" ability ;)

But mainly I'm more interested in making the strategic side more thought-provoking.  The tactical aspect is cool, and could certainly be better, but it's really a strategy game.


My big gripe these days is that planets are too much pushovers compared to how they used to be. If you look at some of Chris' REALLY old tutorial vids from AIW 2.x, you'll see that every planet has literally thousands of ships on them, making it necessary for Chris to attack a single guardpost at a time, and be careful not to stir up the entire planet, thus dooming him as they come careening throught he wormhole.

It feels right now that every individual planet isn't as much of a difficult to take goal as they used to be. But, if this is to be buffed, one has also to keep in mind not to make it unnecessarily grindy. It has to be difficult, not easy and grindy.
Yea, I would have already buffed reinforcements more, but after the last round of it there were complaints of way too many ships.  I think it may have been an outlier situation but I'm not sure.

And the reinforcements may need to be buffed in a different way to avoid RAM/cpu problems.  The game can't easily handle a thousand guards on 79 AI planets and everything else that's going on in there nowadays.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2012, 12:11:19 pm »
Professor Paul your idea of time sensitive ideas is interesting:

However there are only two time sensitive ideas I can think of:

1) Human Colony Rebellions. The player base not to long ago voted them among the worst things in the game, so their cost for failure dropped significantly.
2) Advanced Hybrids with Dyson sphere on: Players clamored to make this easier.

I bring this to illustrate that the core of AI wars to allow you to decide how far you want to press time. The base game has the option of setting adding aip over time, and these minor factions have the option of being turned on  as well. Few players take advantage them in a significant way, meaning the players for whatever reason don't want the time restraints in their current form. Slapping on additional time restraints won't change tactics if the player simply can turn them off unless perhaps there is a carrot as well.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2012, 12:13:58 pm »
My big gripe these days is that planets are too much pushovers compared to how they used to be. If you look at some of Chris' REALLY old tutorial vids from AIW 2.x, you'll see that every planet has literally thousands of ships on them, making it necessary for Chris to attack a single guardpost at a time, and be careful not to stir up the entire planet, thus dooming him as they come careening throught he wormhole.

It feels right now that every individual planet isn't as much of a difficult to take goal as they used to be. But, if this is to be buffed, one has also to keep in mind not to make it unnecessarily grindy. It has to be difficult, not easy and grindy.

If you make the ai have 1000's of ships though, can't you bring in your whole blob and not alert the planet? And my cpu / ram can't handle that at all. Weren't those 1000's of ships on high caps? And if you drag up aip too high don't you get 1000's of ships anyway? Planets are pushovers if you deepstrike or have low aip, but on high aip it can get grindy if you don't actively melt threat.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2012, 12:15:17 pm »
I guess I might be playing too easy difficulty (around 7.3-7.6) then. Because planets are definitely too easy to take for me. I never feel threatened when I'm about to take a planet. It's waves and CPAs that tends to make me jumpy.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2012, 12:16:08 pm »
Also, please forgive my abysmal grammar and spelling today. I'm at work and don't have too much time to go through my posts correcting my brain tumors.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2012, 12:18:53 pm »
I guess I might be playing too easy difficulty (around 7.3-7.6) then. Because planets are definitely too easy to take for me. I never feel threatened when I'm about to take a planet. It's waves and CPAs that tends to make me jumpy.

From 7.3 to 7.6 to 8.0 (my minimal difficulty) I think everything is bumped 33 - 50%. Due to your ships being capped, it makes much more of an impact then 33 - 50% harder.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2012, 12:21:31 pm »
1) Human Colony Rebellions. The player base not to long ago voted them among the worst things in the game, so their cost for failure dropped significantly.
Iirc that was Captive Human Settlements (the things Entrenched Homeworlder AIs get lots of), not HCR.  I don't recall dropping the cost of failure for HCR down.  Indeed, if anything people have been asking that the reward (the buildable resistance ships) be nerfed.

Quote
2) Advanced Hybrids with Dyson sphere on: Players clamored to make this easier.
That's true enough, but that's because I made them brutal, and then people said they weren't seeing them or weren't threatened by them, so I made them more brutal ;)  But mostly the complaints have died down since the plot became tied to certain magnitudes of Adv Hybrids instead of always on (to some degree) when Hybrids are on.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2012, 12:29:06 pm »
Opps, I'm wrong!

I will say I would like more timed events of a similar flavor: Bad if you lose, and a carrot if you win.
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Offline Minotaar

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Re: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2012, 12:30:52 pm »
I think taking planets definitely got easier (I never see barracks and carriers created anymore, as the reinforcements are not enough/constantly get involved in CPAs) but certain AI types definitely have still got it in them. Spireling comes to mind.
Then again, haven't played with the new specops or anything yet. We might need to let the recent (pretty huge) changes shake out a little bit before proposing new ones.

I do like the "small number of very powerful guardians" idea, though. They aren't special if there's 30 on every planet. Having 1-3 that you really have to take into account would be more interesting.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2012, 12:42:10 pm »
The the existing guardians are there to stay, more or less, but I have wanted for a while to do "super guardians" to kind of bridge the gap for the AI between starships/guardians and golems.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2012, 12:52:19 pm »
Now that you mention it, something like that (Super Guardians) would be a great AI Plot for people who want less "mindless blobbing".  As I said, the emphasis should be less on what said Guardians do, and more on how to counter them.  To add 1 or 2 to every planet (based on difficulty, planet level, and AIP, respectively), and more to the tougher planets, would really give us players who like to critically think during each engagement a delicious new challenge.  Even having 10 different "Super Guardians" who each have to be dealt with in a unique way could make the game a lot more interesting, without really increasing CPU tax.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2012, 12:54:26 pm »
Perhaps make the guardians somehow "feed" off fleetships to get stronger, like how H/K's come from golems, golems come from spirecraft, etc?

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Offline Professor Paul1290

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Re: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2012, 01:20:41 pm »
Professor Paul your idea of time sensitive ideas is interesting:

However there are only two time sensitive ideas I can think of:

1) Human Colony Rebellions. The player base not to long ago voted them among the worst things in the game, so their cost for failure dropped significantly.
2) Advanced Hybrids with Dyson sphere on: Players clamored to make this easier.

I bring this to illustrate that the core of AI wars to allow you to decide how far you want to press time. The base game has the option of setting adding aip over time, and these minor factions have the option of being turned on  as well. Few players take advantage them in a significant way, meaning the players for whatever reason don't want the time restraints in their current form. Slapping on additional time restraints won't change tactics if the player simply can turn them off unless perhaps there is a carrot as well.

To be a bit clearer, I don't necessarily mean time sensitive in that they are timed from the start of the game, I mean time sensitive in the context of tactical combat. I guess to be more accurate, I'm talking about things that would be time sensitive because they affect each other.

A lot of operations in mil-sims and real life often involve things that once they get started, a lot of other things have to happen in a relatively short period of time in order to succeed.
It's rather common to have situations where you need to accomplish A, B, and C, but you generally have a lot of room to prepare and wait before you get started on A. The catch is that B and C have to happen pretty fast once you decide to commit and get started on A.

Take having numerous important soft targets combined with threat of reinforcement/retaliation. The player is not in a hurry in the sense that the player decides when to attack and take out those targets. However, the time sensitive nature of this would come in when the player decides to commit to the attack, as the player would be encouraged to kill all of those targets quickly and regroup before reinforcements arrive in response. The player still decides when to commit to the action.

The hypothetical groups or emplacements that do a lot of damage unless being attacked also works this way. The player decides when to commit to the attack and send their blob through the gate, but once they're through they're pressured to send something to fire on those units and suppress them before they do too much damage. Again the player decides when to start, but once things get going they have to follow through.

As you probably notice, a lot of this would involve strengthening how the AI responds to what the player does. Player does decides to do something, but when they do the AI responds, and the player is pressured into doing something to respond to the AI's response.
Basically it would involve encouraging more situations that for a short moment temporarily take tempo away from the player while they run their course.


Some of this does exist in the game, destroying command posts frees all of the units for example, and some guard posts that cause retaliation when destroyed do exist.
What I'm proposing is to have more such action at a more tactical level, where the AI responds to something the player does things to more significantly affect smaller scale situations, like when the player attempts to take the planet.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 01:34:59 pm by Professor Paul1290 »

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Discussion: How to make "blobbing" a less viable tactic?
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2012, 01:31:53 pm »
In some way, the new Special Forces are exactly such a thing. Wipe out the planet before the blob of SFs arrive :P
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