Author Topic: Dictatorship, Bureaucracy, or Democracy  (Read 3198 times)

Offline RCIX

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Dictatorship, Bureaucracy, or Democracy
« on: January 17, 2010, 10:57:08 pm »
Wow, so now we're lobbying for nominations for the voting for the consideration of future DLC?  ;D We're turning into a bureaucracy!   :P
In order to be a bureaucracy we'd have to come up with a 100page ruleset fo posting nominations and require all votes to be mailed to Chris Park for consideration. ;)
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Offline HellishFiend

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Dictatorship, Bureaucracy, or Democracy
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2010, 11:04:19 pm »
Actually just advertising, I guess. Normaly people dont look in the suggestion section

I was only kidding.  :) I'm sure all the good ideas will be gotten around to eventually though. Weeks go by pretty quick.
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Offline raptor331

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Dictatorship, Bureaucracy, or Democracy
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2010, 11:10:59 pm »
Wow, so now we're lobbying for nominations for the voting for the consideration of future DLC?  ;D We're turning into a bureaucracy!   :P
In order to be a bureaucracy we'd have to come up with a 100page ruleset fo posting nominations and require all votes to be mailed to Chris Park for consideration. ;)

You know what screw this, lets make a dictatorship.....

Offline RCIX

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Dictatorship, Bureaucracy, or Democracy
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2010, 11:12:08 pm »
i thought it already was (no offense X) ;)
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Offline HellishFiend

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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2010, 11:13:42 pm »
Wow, so now we're lobbying for nominations for the voting for the consideration of future DLC?  ;D We're turning into a bureaucracy!   :P
In order to be a bureaucracy we'd have to come up with a 100page ruleset fo posting nominations and require all votes to be mailed to Chris Park for consideration. ;)

You know what screw this, lets make a dictatorship.....

Thats what most game companies are. If youre lucky, theyll respond to your bug reports and fix them, but otherwise they just make the game however they want and add the content they want, and dont communicate much with the player base. X's approach to the community is part of what makes me such a fan.  :P
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Offline x4000

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Dictatorship, Bureaucracy, or Democracy
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2010, 11:24:46 pm »
i thought it already was (no offense X) ;)

Indeed it is, I make no secret of that.  I try to do what the community wants, but it also has to align with what I want.  I think it's well established that games that are "designed by committee" tend to stink, and so the unifying vision is mine.  If it doesn't fit with that vision, it's out.  And even in cases where I ask for feedback, I don't always go with the majority (as has been seen in the past in a number of cases).  Even in the case of the voting on DLC, I'm going to use the results as that as a rough guide, not as something where I'm just always going to do what gets the top votes.  I'll implement whatever makes the most sense given my schedule, where I think the game should go, and what makes the most sense with the rest of the context of the game at that point in time.  But, knowing what people in general are most interested in is most definitely a help.

Now, there's a difference between being an evil dictator that just does whatever he wants and makes everyone else unhappy, and being a... for lack of a better word... benevolent dictator that acts in the best interests of the group even when some decision is counter to the wishes of specific individuals or the majority.  When I was soliciting ideas for the name of the first expansion, I had one player who got very bent out of shape that I wouldn't include his suggestion in the voting poll, because (as I put it) there was no way I'd pick that name even if everyone else voted on it as the top choice, because I personally didn't like it.  He called me close-minded and ranted a while (this was all via PM) and ultimately left the forums, which I was sorry to see.  But I didn't go into business for myself to take edicts from others, despite the fact that I give super-strong weight to what the community likes and wants and feels.

It's a fine line to walk, but hopefully it's working out well.  I get to make the sort of games that I, specifically, want to make, while also making sure that as many other people like it as possible.  In the end, this is sort of a mini-Democracy (the community) that is then subjected to a dictator (me) who firstly does what he wants, but also tries to keep the good of the whole in mind.  It's an interesting system, at least.  I guess really every game developer is kind of like this, except that the mini-Democracy is much less powerful or nonexistent.
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Offline HellishFiend

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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2010, 11:30:27 pm »
It's a fine line to walk, but hopefully it's working out well.  I get to make the sort of games that I, specifically, want to make, while also making sure that as many other people like it as possible.  In the end, this is sort of a mini-Democracy (the community) that is then subjected to a dictator (me) who firstly does what he wants, but also tries to keep the good of the whole in mind.  It's an interesting system, at least.  I guess really every game developer is kind of like this, except that the mini-Democracy is much less powerful or nonexistent.

Haha, I never saw it like that until you put it that way. In any case, I'll take your dictatorship over any other game company's "form of government". I sometimes wonder if your style would work on a much larger scale, but for the scale it is now, its perfect.
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Offline x4000

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Dictatorship, Bureaucracy, or Democracy
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2010, 11:47:14 pm »
Haha, I never saw it like that until you put it that way. In any case, I'll take your dictatorship over any other game company's "form of government". I sometimes wonder if your style would work on a much larger scale, but for the scale it is now, its perfect.

Fortunately, a given game tends to attract an audience with a similar vision to that of the creator, so it tends to work out pretty well.  Usually the players and I are in pretty good agreement, overall, with where the game should go.  One could argue that this is the only possible outcome, given that people who don't agree with the overall vision, in broad terms, would never have joined the community in the first place.  Of course, that's probably flawed given the number of unanswered complaints on many game forums about very popular titles.  Ah, well.

In the end, it's me in my office thinking up games I want to make, and working on them with a small staff.  There is feedback between all of us on all aspects of the game, but I often defer to them on their areas of expertise, and I tend to keep the central vision for the design itself (the puzzle game aside).  Then we start showing stuff to the alpha/beta testers, and/or the community, and adding in their collective and individual desires and comments and ideas, as well.  It seems to work well.  It's not as solitary as writing a novel that is all made by one person (although, he many editors contribute more than most non-writers imagine), but it's still an act of individual expression.  I can look at a game and go "I made that," rather than "I oversaw the committee that made that."

It's an interesting thing to think about, and not something that historically I had thought a whole lot about directly.  But, more recently, I have been.  For a long, long time it was just me and a handful of testers.  But once I started having customers, it was quickly obvious that they were also full of good ideas, and I was already well accustomed to listening to customers from my old day job.  So this sort of system sort of came about organically, and I think it has been working well so far (for me, at least, it has been an unmitigated success).

I agree that this probably would not work on a larger scale in terms of company size, because if you have too many contributors it is hard to do that.  Here, I can be King of Design and Programming, Phil can be King of Art, and Pablo can be King of Music and Sound, and we can all cross-share and that works out well.  When you have 100 artists alone, that's a whole different sort of scenario.  With a larger customer base I think this can probably still work, although the democracy has to turn more self-organizing and filter the discussion more for the developers to have any hope of parsing anything meaningful out of it.  That's sort of what we're seeing now, a bit, as we go through this current transition.
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Offline HellishFiend

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Dictatorship, Bureaucracy, or Democracy
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2010, 12:10:03 am »
With a larger customer base I think this can probably still work, although the democracy has to turn more self-organizing and filter the discussion more for the developers to have any hope of parsing anything meaningful out of it.  That's sort of what we're seeing now, a bit, as we go through this current transition.

Well, hopefully the current transition is more of an evolution of the old feedback system rather than the death of it. After all, it's still being run and fed by the community. I'm sure that as long as you have the will and the means to interact with the community, most of us will be willing to accommodate whatever avenues of feedback work best for you at the time. In my eyes, the point where developers cease to communicate with the community at all is the point where forums turn into a collection of unhelpful complainers and no longer help the development process.

Edit: Oops, I think we hijacked this thread.... Sorry!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 12:33:00 am by HellishFiend »
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Offline RCIX

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Dictatorship, Bureaucracy, or Democracy
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2010, 12:13:46 am »
Oh, yeah, i'd not have it any other way; i was just making a joke :)
I rather like this system; i imagine that the game might be unbalanced or unfun if some of the other people here (like me!) were under control, and it would certainly be a lot different at least.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Dictatorship, Bureaucracy, or Democracy
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2010, 12:30:52 am »
I definitely won't let the community involvement aspect die -- it's an important cornerstone of the Arcen business model at this stage.  It may have to evolve as the customer base continues to grow, but I'll do my best to make sure that the spirit of how things work remains the same as time goes on.

And you're right, we did totally hijack this thread.  I split it to save the original. :)

@RCIX:  I knew you were making a joke -- no worries!  But a lot of joke touch on truth, and this was an opportunity for me to express some things I'd been thinking about.  I think that some people (like the unnamed player above) see "community involvement welcome" as code for "the developers will do whatever I/the community want," and that can lead to strife where there really shouldn't be any.  Of course anybody who creates any sort of product or service has an idea of how they want to do it, and they try to stick to it.  Even open-source software projects often have team leads who accept, reject,or modify outside contributions.  The linux kernel, while completely open, is also very much a vision-led project, for instance.

Anyway -- so I just figured it was a good time to expound on what I'd been thinking a bit, since you brought it up. :)
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Offline raptor331

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Re: Dictatorship, Bureaucracy, or Democracy
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2010, 08:16:59 am »
errrkkk soo many long speeches :o

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Dictatorship, Bureaucracy, or Democracy
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2010, 08:37:57 am »
I think its the better system - x4000 is the quality/feasability Sift every suggestion must pass through :D
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Offline mallocks

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Re: Dictatorship, Bureaucracy, or Democracy
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2010, 03:38:29 pm »
It sounds very similar to the system Tarn Adams (of Dwarf Fortress fame) has going on. I think it works at any rate, in both games. :)

Offline orzelek

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Re: Dictatorship, Bureaucracy, or Democracy
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2010, 04:58:58 pm »
Dwarf Fortress has two bad sides - rare releases and time consuming.