Author Topic: Dear Christopher Park  (Read 5870 times)

Offline Litcube

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Dear Christopher Park
« on: August 04, 2011, 01:33:33 am »
Please make a 4x game.

Thank you.

Offline c4sc4

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Re: Dear Christopher Park
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2011, 02:23:22 am »
Would you not consider AI War to be a 4x game? It seems a lot like one to me.

Offline Coppermantis

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Re: Dear Christopher Park
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2011, 03:12:58 am »
It's part 4X. Not entirely, but it does certainly have elements of it.

Also, I love the member rankings on this forum.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Dear Christopher Park
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2011, 04:05:10 am »
this is pretty close to 4x while still maintaining the rts feel..

with that said, id love a real 4x title i havent seen a properly good space 4x in a while.. With the last one being like space empires 4..
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Offline Litcube

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Re: Dear Christopher Park
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2011, 04:44:44 am »
Out of dozens of disappointing titles we've seen come out of the 4x field within the past 7 years, I'm starting to believe that the only people I'd trust to do one properly would be Chris and Arcen Games.

Offline Philature

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Re: Dear Christopher Park
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2011, 08:00:39 am »
What do you mean by 4x because AI War got a lot of the Xs except one. If you meant a turn based strategy games, yeah that a whole different games.

AI War got 3 of the 4 Xs:


Explore
AI War have so much scouting, a lot more than many classic 4x and it play a bigger role in the medium-term game.

Expand
You do expand in AI War, and you expand in more interesting ways than classic 4x for two reasons: i) getting to specific points is very important for special ressource and essential for victory (advanced research station, advanced factory, fabricator, core shield generator and anything else that your expansion has activated). ii) This phase is less boring in AI War than classic 4x because your expansion is actually part of a war right at the begining while 4x you usually start by expanding in empty unoccupied space.

Exploit
This is were AI War is not really a 4x. You do have technology and technology points as a 4x games but I think the major elements is really your planet economic development in 4x; building factory and research center for increasing your prodution or research output, improving your tax income and etc.

Personally, I found the Exploit to be one of the most problematic aspect of 4x games. In modern 4x, you can sometime win just by doing a lot of exploitation. In fact, having a well refined and powerfull economy could mean that the last X, exterminate, is often done through pure economic dominance and large number. A good example of this problem come from the Total War series; they got this pretty nice combat and intense combat mechanic but if you are really good at the Exploit part of the game you can make so many more units then your opponent that the combat mechanic become pointless, you just overrun your ennemies with very large numbers.

By not getting into the Exploit, AI War is kind of avoiding this problems and focus more on the the three other Xs and that the strenght of the games.

However, Exploit is a very interesting mechanic in itself and in fact many games, especially board games, solely use this mechanic to create truly outstanding and fun games. Settler of Catan, Puerto Rico, Agricola, Dominion and Caylus are all extremely popular board games that only focus on developping stuff in a turn based environment. If the guys at Arcen Games want a good design for an Exploit games that where they have to look and truly making them a bit real-time would do them good as well. Now that I'm thinking about it I'll try to come up with a board games that include AI War procedural and deep Explore and Expand mechanic into an actual board games (or maybe I should finish my other design about a cooperative board games closer to AI War concept but I feel the later would make me more money, board games is really all about Exploit these days).


Exterminate
Well you don't exterminate everyone as in many 4x, AI War follow the more plausible scenario of taking the leader and central forces which more accurately ressemble an actual war (nobody ever conquered every bit of an ennemies empire, they get the big important chunk and the rest surrender).
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 08:04:12 am by Philature »

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Dear Christopher Park
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2011, 09:36:58 am »
To me, it isn't a true 4X space game until 1) you can design your own race with its own strengths, weaknesses and abilities, 2) you can design your own ships at the component level.

Offline x4000

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Re: Dear Christopher Park
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2011, 09:41:21 am »
Thanks for the kind words, Litcube. :)

I think that Philature does raise some interesting points, in that AI War is already very 4X-y, but I presume that you mean a bit more like a traditional 4X with things like a huge tech tree, turns instead of realtime, etc.  That is an idea that Keith and I have talked about a lot, and I think we'll probably do that at some point -- but it has to be suitably distinct from AI War, which we're not nearly done with yet.

To some extent, I think that means that combat would really get downplayed a lot more, and that we'd skew more in the directions of research, economics, etc.  I agree that a lot of 4X games suffer from being too best-pathy, but removing the Exploit aspect of them is something that I only feel is appropriate in a realtime context.  With AI War my goal was to make an RTS game that felt like a 4X.  With a "true 4X" game my goal would be to make a turn-based game that moves quickly, has a lot of interesting decisions, and isn't just a slug-fest in terms of combat (since that's one of the places that turns in multiplayer in particular really tend to bog down).

In some respects, I almost think we'd have to go with some completely other concept other than being the leader of a whole civilization: that's been done so many times.  I also don't really want to make another game in space, as I get my space fix from AI War.  So most likely this would be some sort of terrestrial top-down game that's turn-based where you... do something.  Obvious non-combat mechanics that lend themselves to 4X are religion and politics, though religion is obviously a loaded gun that I don't want to play with.  And politics just have this aura of being really boring.  But I really like how Vic did something really different with Solium Infernum, for instance -- I don't want to duplicate what he did, but that sort of sideways scenario that is unique to the game is something I think I'd want to hunt for.

Anyway, most likely we're 3-5 years out from even starting on such a project, but it is something I intend to work on at some point in my career.  Ideas need to gel a lot more first, though, and in the meantime there's still a lot more to be done with AI War and now AVWW.  And the next game Keith and I have been talking about the most is a turn-based tactics game.  4X ideas tend to slide into all our games (even AVWW), so I'm sure the tactics game would take some influence there, too.

So many games to make, so little time!  I guess that's a better problem to have than having too much time and no ideas.  ;D
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Dear Christopher Park
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2011, 11:38:03 am »
To some extent, I think that means that combat would really get downplayed a lot more, and that we'd skew more in the directions of research, economics, etc.
Sadly, combat is my favorite part :( .  I still have MOO2 installed for my 4X space fix.  Nothing has ever surpassed that game for me in that genre.  AI Wars is a very different type of game.  It is very puzzle-like, with on-the-fly problem solving.  I love AI Wars a lot, but it just doesn't feel like a 4X at all to me.

Offline zoutzakje

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Re: Dear Christopher Park
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2011, 02:36:01 pm »
:O
really hope you and Keith will come up with a great turn base tactics game in serveral years, Chris. Major fan of the Final Fantasy: Tactics games here.

Offline x4000

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Re: Dear Christopher Park
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2011, 02:37:37 pm »
Major fan of the Final Fantasy: Tactics games here.

Me, too.  Keith likes Brigandine and others more, but I'm quite pleased FFT just came out for iPhone.  FFTA was also great, FFTA2 was less so to me.
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Offline Awod

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Re: Dear Christopher Park
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2011, 10:32:00 pm »
Major fan of the Final Fantasy: Tactics games here.

Me, too.  Keith likes Brigandine and others more, but I'm quite pleased FFT just came out for iPhone.  FFTA was also great, FFTA2 was less so to me.

I was like; "Awesome!", then I looked and it's 16 bucks! geez. Think I'll hold off for some kind of sale. 15.99 for an iPhone game is a tad much.

Offline x4000

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Re: Dear Christopher Park
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2011, 10:39:11 pm »
Well, it beats 40 for the latest ds one. :)
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Dear Christopher Park
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2011, 11:01:51 pm »
How anyone can play on those tiny screens, yes even on an ipad, is beyond me.. guess i am spoiled from my 24" gaming screen but seriously ;) I am getting nauseous from playing for any longer period on iphone or simliar /much better\ smart phones, like any Android phone.

Anyway, if you think of making a new interesting game, i have a vastly better idea

Please make Dungeon Keeper 3 - thank you. (Just don't call it that ,p)

Also Forum bug - my nickname is NOT ERe4s3r , its eRe4s3r  - small e, big difference ,)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 11:03:22 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline x4000

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Re: Dear Christopher Park
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2011, 10:23:51 am »
I like the small screen, myself, but I find it hard to play my DS lite now that I'm used to the iPhone 4.  Not a fan of the android much, myself. ;)

Never played dungeon keeper, but I've heard good things!

Very odd on the forums capitalizing your username all of a sudden.  Not sure what the deal is with that.
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