Dealing with the special forces

[keith.lamothe]

BTW, what do SF rally guardians do now? They don't seem to invite the SF into my planets so what's their point?

If they're in AI territory, they function as a spawn point.  If they're in your territory, they aren't an eligible spawn point but do increase special forces spawns a bit (just like a special forces guard post would, if in your territory).

[KDR_11k]

Sounds very indirect and non-threatening (since they don't live THAT long on human territory the bonus won't compound much).

[keith.lamothe]

Sounds very indirect and non-threatening (since they don't live THAT long on human territory the bonus won't compound much).

Yea, it's not really a big deal, though you'll still want them dead.

[TechSY730]

As a suggestion, could the special forces guardian be added to the list of "lower priority" (or possibly lowest priority) defense targets? That way, it can special forces indirectly by making the planet it is on something they want to defend. Not sure if it would still be apply this logic on a non-friendly planet, as I could see abusive luring tactics if it was allowed to mark a non-AI owned planet as something special forces would want to defend. The lower priority defense goal would be there to prevent them from getting lured indefinitely by first attacking the planet with the special forces guardian, and then attacking something more important.

EDIT: The idea of this is to turn special forces guardians into something you want to get rid of. In return, I guess they could lose their ability to buff special forces caps when not on an AI owned planet. (Though this would remove the incentive to destroy them when not on an AI planet but not attacking you, so maybe this could stay, but they wouldn't contribute as much to the cap compared to normal SFGP)

EDIT2: They probably should also get a reduced spawn rate if this change was made.

[Kahuna]

Ok I was able to deal with the Special Forces. However.. I just met the AI reserves for the first time when I attacked the first home world. Gj with the reserves. This is how home worlds are supposed to be defended. Without Golems, Spirecraft or Spire Fleet it's going to be hard.

[keith.lamothe]

Ok I was able to deal with the Special Forces. However.. I just met the AI reserves for the first time when I attacked the first home world. Gj with the reserves. This is how home worlds are supposed to be defended. Without Golems, Spirecraft or Spire Fleet it's going to be hard.

Good work getting through those SF guys   Glad you like the reserves, let me know how that goes; I'm curious to know how long it takes them to empty the reserves (and thus how long the fight runs), etc on that kind of difficulty.

[Cinth]

Ok I was able to deal with the Special Forces. However.. I just met the AI reserves for the first time when I attacked the first home world. Gj with the reserves. This is how home worlds are supposed to be defended. Without Golems, Spirecraft or Spire Fleet it's going to be hard.

Heh. My first experience with the reserves wasn't kind either.

Took 200 F Spire capitol ships onto a homeworld with ~70% reserves left. Defense Exo + 4000 ships immediately spawning in my face wasn't a pretty sight (and that was just a 7/7 response).

[keith.lamothe]

Another way to (theoretically) nail the special forces that would be fun to see the results of:
1) Enable Dark Spire minor faction.
2) Find a Dark Spire generator on a CSG planet (or other planet the SF will defend)
3) Trigger that generator at least once
4) Find another Dark Spire generator that you can deploy whipping-boy-level defenses on.
5) Send a significant cloaked threat to the CSG planet from step 2, and just keep it out of the way (this will make the SF respond to the detected threat)
6) Get the Dark Spire going on the planet from step 4, and really ramp up the carnage (you have to lose stuff, or the AI does; Dark Spire deaths won't count)
7) Watch Dark Spire chain-spawns on the CSG planet overwhelm the SF

[Cinth]

Another way to (theoretically) nail the special forces that would be fun to see the results of:
1) Enable Dark Spire minor faction.
2) Find a Dark Spire generator on a CSG planet (or other planet the SF will defend)
3) Trigger that generator at least once
4) Find another Dark Spire generator that you can deploy whipping-boy-level defenses on.
5) Send a significant cloaked threat to the CSG planet from step 2, and just keep it out of the way (this will make the SF respond to the detected threat)
6) Get the Dark Spire going on the planet from step 4, and really ramp up the carnage (you have to lose stuff, or the AI does; Dark Spire deaths won't count)
7) Watch Dark Spire chain-spawns on the CSG planet overwhelm the SF

My current 9.8/9.8 I am trying to do something similar (DS at 10/10)) Just need them to not kill AIP increasing structures (guessing through splash). Getting the DS in full cascade is pretty fun to watch.

[keith.lamothe]

I kinda think DS shouldn't care how much trouble blowing up something is going to cause you   They're a very intentional-chaos faction, though I did stop them from killing command stations so they wouldn't "take" whole planets you didn't choose.

[Cinth]

I kinda think DS shouldn't care how much trouble blowing up something is going to cause you   They're a very intentional-chaos faction, though I did stop them from killing command stations so they wouldn't "take" whole planets you didn't choose.

Maybe, but I don't see a big difference in the 2. Both would cause unwanted AIP gains. I guess it comes down to how much control the player should have over AIP.

Added: 100 planets is 500 AIP in warp gates alone. Adding all the little +1s and you could easily get 600 just from DS alone. That alone could cause someone to lose a perfectly winnable game.

[Dichotomy]

My favorite way of dealing with the special forces involves the cookie monster.

If Dark Spire can kill +AIP structures (which I oppose) please add a note to that effect in their description.

[LordSloth]

I have a slightly delusional and mildly sleep deprived post I have written up and saved... but I've decided to hold most of back till I can look on it in the morning and decide whether it should go forward.

Here's a shortened, but no less irrational list of the key points, that in no way reflects on optimal gameplay mechanisms supporting a wide style of playstyles and AI types and minor faction-induced complexity. Please do not take it seriously.

• What's wrong with 600+ AIP? AIP Level 1 should be easy mode, things should start getting challenging at AIP2 (when you've conquered your small portion of the universe and established a presence. AIP3 should be when you start fearing the AI, and AIP4 should be when you're facing your doom. What's the point of 'difficulty' levels if you never see them?
  
  • AIP is an excellent gameplay mechanic and controller of challenge. That said, I used to have the feeling that riding just below the next AIP LEVEL meant something. The intermingling of muliple mks in waves makes for much better play, but much less emotional impact to reaching a new level.
  • Show the AIP #. Show the target ship mix. Don't change the actual mechanics. Change the AIP Level to green, yellow, red alert. Have a game designer headache getting this to reflect the wonderful diversity of playstyles and enemy types. Yellow/green should reflect danger accurately. Either that, or without affecting the maths, change the AIP levels to reflect new points - AIP 3 actually occurs at 300-400 and the AI starts getting a lot more actively aggressive; AIP 4 occurs at 400-500 and the AI starts actually trying to reclaim territory.
  It should be entirely rational, though optional, costly, and ocd with a tradeoff to wipe out 40-60 special forces posts to cut down on the number of guys that spawn in the galaxy. And it should be fine to let the dark spire do the same thing, albeit with ...consequences.
  
  Edit: 3 excessive list tags removed. And they keep coming back!

[Kahuna]

let me know how that goes; I'm curious to know how long it takes them to empty the reserves (and thus how long the fight runs), etc on that kind of difficulty.

First the AI released 30% of the Reserve. That was about 300 MarkV ships. After a minute or 2 or a bit more the AI had released everything. There was more than 1000 MarkV ships. My whole fleet got destroyed but whatever. My goal was to get rid of the Core Raid Engine and Core CPA post and I did. 3 Guard Posts and a Fortress left.

Then all left over AI ships + Core CPA attacked me. =about ~3k-4k ships. I destroyed more than half of them trying to defend my Heavy Bomber Starship IV Fabricator (which was destroyed) and the rest on my primary whipping boys.

[Kahuna]

let me know how that goes; I'm curious to know how long it takes them to empty the reserves (and thus how long the fight runs), etc on that kind of difficulty.

First the AI released 30% of the Reserve. That was about 300 MarkV ships. After a minute or 2 or a bit more the AI had released everything. There was more than 1000 MarkV ships. My whole fleet got destroyed but whatever. My goal was to get rid of the Core Raid Engine and Core CPA post and I did. 3 Guard Posts and a Fortress left.

Then all left over AI ships + Core CPA attacked me. =about ~3k-4k ships. I destroyed more than half of them trying to defend my Heavy Bomber Starship IV Fabricator (which was destroyed) and the rest on my primary whipping boys.

By the time I had rebuilt my fleet and was ready to attack that home world again the Reserve was at 50% so there was about 500 MarkV ships Had no super weapons nor MarkIV ships so I decided to use missiles. Oh and that "baiting the Reserve ships to my planets" didn't work. Sure they attacked me but they respawn so fast it wasn't effetive. I also saw that was fixed in the latest patch. I completed the game with the 5.095 patch just few minutes ago. Reserves are like Special Forces dedicated to defending the core planets. Both of them respawn really fast and make life difficult.

This is right after I destroyed the last home world. I didn't think it would have been a good idea to start a whole new thread just for 1 screen shot and this is KINDA related to this topic so I post this here.
Have Avengers been buffed recently? Destroying them before they reached my planets (without Golems, Spirecraft or Spire Fleet) seemed.. very hard.. to say the least.