Author Topic: In-game unit info index  (Read 4285 times)

Offline Admiral

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Re: In-game unit info index
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2009, 11:18:42 pm »
Is that?

This is what it says: (from recollection; not accurate numbers or anything)

Fighter
Strong against: +98% Cruisers
Weak against: -90% Bombers

What I have always interpreted this as meaning was:

Fighter attacks Cruiser: Fighter does 98% more damage than attacking anything not listed.
Fighter attacks Bomber: Fighter does 90% less damage than attacking anything not listed.

Are you saying what this means is actually:

Fighter attacks Cruiser: Fighter does 98% more damage than attacking anything not listed.
Bomber attacks Fighter: Bomber does 90% more damage than attacking anything not listed in Bomber's page.

I guess I need a clarification in depth (and maybe a FAQ unless I'm a moron and didn't RTFF).

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Offline x4000

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Re: In-game unit info index
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2009, 11:24:53 pm »
It's not a matter of bonuses at all -- it's way more useful than that.  Here's the detailed explanation:  http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Strong_Vs_Weak
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Re: In-game unit info index
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2009, 11:32:05 pm »
Ah. I have read that now and I believe I fully understand it. I have to say now that I feel that information is nearly completely useless to me. Why? How the heck do I know what the ship caps are and why would I even care?

What I really want to know is "how does one of X fare against one of Y?" (Or, 100 vs 100, whatever.)

I know how many ships I have. I know how many ships he has. (in any given encounter) I don't care if 170 Fighters usually destroys 120 Cruisers. (even assuming I knew it was 170 vs 120 for the caps offhand) I want to know what 1% of 100 Fighters do to 100 Cruisers, because I can tell that I have exactly 170 fighters and that he has exactly 120 cruisers, and I can mentally scale from there (I have about 40% ship advantage, and take it from there).

What are the game mechanics behind this? Are the ships solely represented by the variables shown (health, firing rate, firing damage, firing distance)?

Thanks...

Offline x4000

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Re: In-game unit info index
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2009, 11:37:15 pm »
The reason the ship caps matter is this:  you can field armies of 6x more infiltrators than other ships.  So if you compare 1 infiltrator to 1 of anything else, it will ALWAYS lose.  You would conclude that infiltrators are useless.  When, in fact, they are good at killing lots of stuff in the ratios you would commonly see in the game -- that you would build, or that the AI would build.  The ship caps also affect how many of each shp type the AI builds, which makes it doubly relevant.

The game runs actual battles and records the results, that is all.  It's AI versus AI in that -- otherwise there are too many variables to come to accurate conclusions, so it just runs the game itself to find out what the results are.
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Re: In-game unit info index
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2009, 11:43:57 pm »
I guess I'd like a "normalized" version of this with 100 vs 100 instead of CAP1 vs CAP2 ships. After all, I have no idea what the caps are for each, and the caps change with each Mk.

Or, otherwise - show the caps in the Strong/Weak vs. so we can do the normalization in our heads.

I mean, I used to think "Strong vs +50%" meant I could send 50 Fighters to kill 100 Cruisers. Now, all I know is that it means if I send ALL my fighters of a certain Mk against SOME RANDOM UNKNOWN NUMBER of Cruisers (of the same Mk) then I will have 50% of my fighters left after killing all the enemy Cruisers.

And, the AI isn't limited to a ship cap anyway. :)

I am wondering if I am the only one who doesn't (or didn't) get this. I realize I'm not the master tactician that others are, but boy, have I been completely misunderstanding this game that I've been playing for months and for someone who doesn't usually consider himself a moron... I'm feeling pretty damn moronic.

Offline Echo35

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Re: In-game unit info index
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2009, 11:53:42 pm »
The actual data from the game is in XML format. Have you seen the wiki?

http://arcengames.com/communitywiki/index.php?title=Unit_Types_and_Tactics

http://arcengames.com/communitywiki/index.php?title=Relative_Ship_Strength



Actually I hadn't looked at the Wiki before. That is pretty nice. If those values didn't change so damn much I'd make a nice graphical PDF chart for it, but it would be outdated almost instantly. Not that there's anything wrong with that.  8)

Offline x4000

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Re: In-game unit info index
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2009, 12:05:52 am »
I guess I'd like a "normalized" version of this with 100 vs 100 instead of CAP1 vs CAP2 ships. After all, I have no idea what the caps are for each, and the caps change with each Mk.

This would take double long to create, and I'm not sure where I would show this data.  I've studied these numbers endlessly, and I'm pretty sure the current ones are the best representation of relative strength possible.  It's multi-dimensional data that can't easily be represented as a series of single numbers, but these do the best of showing it.  

Or, otherwise - show the caps in the Strong/Weak vs. so we can do the normalization in our heads.

There are too many units for you to really try to normalize to that level of detail, anyway, and that would just make the interface all that much more confusing.  The unit caps are now shown on the hover tips -- second row -- but you'd have to look at the hover tip for the target versus the source.

My advice is to not worry about it to that level.  If you have vampires, you can see that their cap is very low, so you can judge that you need fewer of them to get the same effect.  If you have infiltrators, you know you need way more than usual to be effective.  But that's about it.

For the numbers, 100% means that even if you are outnumbered, you will probably win -- your ships really ream the others.  -99% means it probably doesn't matter how many ships you have, you will do really poorly against that enemy with your ship.  It's meant to be a rough guide of best ships, not a formula for success (there's no such thing).  It does a very good job of telling you the best ships for a given situation, and how relatively strong each of those best types are versus the type in question, and that's all it's supposed to do.  If you want more, then that's the charts that Rev posted on the community wiki, which are hugely more time consuming to peruse (and, I think, less relevant during actual gameplay).

I mean, I used to think "Strong vs +50%" meant I could send 50 Fighters to kill 100 Cruisers. Now, all I know is that it means if I send ALL my fighters of a certain Mk against SOME RANDOM UNKNOWN NUMBER of Cruisers (of the same Mk) then I will have 50% of my fighters left after killing all the enemy Cruisers.

It means that if you send a reasonable number of fighters against a reasonable number of cruisers, they will have a good survival rate but won't escape nearly unscathed.  Don't try to make this too concrete, especially because good (or poor) tactics, and/or other nearby ship class interactions, can completely blow this away.  Unlike a TBS game, there isn't quite the precision of numbers in practice because of all the interactions and the subtleties of how tactics are played out.  That's why this is just a rough guide, and can never be more than that.  Even though the numbers are "right."

And, the AI isn't limited to a ship cap anyway. :)

No, but they build in those proportions.  That's important.  A raid of infiltrators is always going to be about 6x larger than normal, whereas a wave of vampires is about 3x smaller than normal.

I am wondering if I am the only one who doesn't (or didn't) get this. I realize I'm not the master tactician that others are, but boy, have I been completely misunderstanding this game that I've been playing for months and for someone who doesn't usually consider himself a moron... I'm feeling pretty damn moronic.

I wouldn't worry about it -- the important thing is the relative powers here.  You know which ships you prefer to use in a given situation, and which are not a good idea, and that's the important thing.  The subtleties might help in specific close-call situations, but otherwise it's just important to know the order of preferences...
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Offline Admiral

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Re: In-game unit info index
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2009, 12:10:09 am »
I think that your answers to my moronism (and I'm not from Utah! OK, bad pun) might be useful additions to the Wiki page you have up. :)

Offline Huw

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Re: In-game unit info index
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2009, 06:24:43 am »
I am wondering if I am the only one who doesn't (or didn't) get this.

It wasn't just you.  I made the same assumption as you did and I hadn't read that wiki page until today.
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Offline Fiskbit

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Re: In-game unit info index
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2009, 07:02:02 am »
I'd be willing to bet most people get confused by this; perhaps it'd be helpful to bring it up in the tutorials, if it can be adequately explained there and without breaking the flow.

While we're on this topic..cutlasses are weak and strong against themselves. I feel like this is data worth pruning from the list.
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Offline x4000

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Re: In-game unit info index
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2009, 03:08:28 am »
For some reason the board never notified me of the responses here, and I just happened to notice it now.  It seems to be dropping the ball more and more in occasional circumstances, which is odd.  Maybe it will only send a certain number of emails about new messages at once?  I don't know, but that's annoying if so.

Anyway, now that I've seen this, I've added the notes to put this in the wiki and also possibly tutorials, etc, to my list:  http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,899.0.html
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