Author Topic: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps  (Read 16541 times)

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps
« Reply #75 on: May 23, 2014, 09:51:44 pm »
Um, TBH, the "deflation" of the game was one of the big thongs on my "plea" list (I think, I need to check). I honestly do not think the game can wait till 9.000 for this to be finalized. The current balance is already at the cusp of falling apart into utter bad design, IMHO.

Again, I am willing to PAY to ensure that 8.000 has enough time for this sort of stuff to have time to settle.

The armor thing is also a big deal, but not quite as "user visible" as the number of zeroes being thrown all around. ;)

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps
« Reply #76 on: May 23, 2014, 10:26:13 pm »
Um, TBH, the "deflation" of the game was one of the big thongs on my "plea" list (I think, I need to check). I honestly do not think the game can wait till 9.000 for this to be finalized. The current balance is already at the cusp of falling apart into utter bad design, IMHO.
I simply don't see it as anywhere near that severe, which I think reflects a fundamental (or nearly so) difference in our views of the game and what it should be.  Yes, the deflation is important to take some of the pressure off the superweapon units (which have to fight rather harder for their lives amongst swarms of normal units than they used to), but it's not like things are just going to collapse because of it not being done in the next couple months.  People are still having a great deal of fun with the game, and more fun than they had with 7.0, etc.

Quote
Again, I am willing to PAY to ensure that 8.000 has enough time for this sort of stuff to have time to settle.
I can't think of a business model where any moderate number of people would be able to contribute enough money to significantly alter the needs of our development schedule.  Unless we're talking about someone(s) willing to contribute very large sums of cash, and that's not the sort of thing we'd ask for.

Anyway, I'll consider it.  Basically 8.0 is likely to happen in early August, and I suppose there might be time between now and then for a deflation to settle down if it's done in the next couple weeks.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps
« Reply #77 on: May 23, 2014, 10:44:41 pm »
Yea, I realize practically it isn't very viable for me to really be able to do that. I know that the kinds of money needed to have you guys be able to afford pushing back release dates like that would be in the tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. And while I am willing to put a substancial amount of money to this...it isn't quite to those levels. ;)

I said it more to highlight how big a deal I feel that much of this technical debt cleanup is.

Also, August...yikss.

Yea, I can see it having to wait again.  With "unbugging" the new stuff and the less substancial polish (glad to see some support from others on cleaning up old UI and minor detail "clunkiness"), I can see why you would be hesistent to add this on as well.

Offline Tridus

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,305
  • I'm going to do what I do best: lecture her!
Re: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2014, 06:02:33 am »
The stat deflation is important to me too. Less so for super weapon balance, (though some of them need that), and more so because the numbers get so huge I have a hard time reading them correctly. I've gotten 20 vs 200 million wrong several times, for example.

Offline Histidine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
Re: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2014, 08:08:41 am »
How hard is it anyway to do a generalised deflation (constant for all units)? I hope it doesn't involve editing a thousand variables by hand  :o

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2014, 09:27:30 am »
How hard is it anyway to do a generalised deflation (constant for all units)? I hope it doesn't involve editing a thousand variables by hand  :o
Oh, I can have it do a final step of /=100 on health and damage and armor and armor piercing (just those 4, I think) pretty easily.  But there are some units with base damage/whatever small enough that this would impact them (150 / 100 = 1, since these are integers), so I'd need to do a before-and-after compare of the reference sheet to see what actually changed, whether it's acceptable or correctable, etc.

Edit: later, if I want the actual stat definitions to not look odd (like back when most fleetships got a *7 health multiplier from the 2.x or 3.x days and whenever I talked code numbers people would wonder why my values were 1/7th what they were seeing), THEN I need to edit a few thousand variables by hand ;)  Though it's not so bad as I've got a lot of it rounded up into "set according to this mark level and target cap dps" and such functions.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 09:32:46 am by keith.lamothe »
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Fleet Unity

  • Full Member Mark III
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
Re: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps
« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2014, 09:40:20 am »
Also I think someone already said this but the turrets like lasers, sniper, and heavy beam cannons are linked to to the Fallen Spire Fleet as well as the Spire Corvette as well as most unlocks in the Spire Galactic Capital as some other turrets are also linked to some of the modular fortresses as well. I just wanted to post this before the turrets were changed, just in case those items could be affected by the change. not sure if they would just thought I would post this.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps
« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2014, 10:45:04 am »
Ok, did a before-and-after test on the /=100 stat deflation.  Bear in mind that the target ratio is 100:1, and that any value that was > 0 was not reduced below 1 for this (otherwise strangeness would ensue).


Health is ok, the highest old:new ratio there being 100.1:1 (due to some other rounding rules), and none being lower than 100:1 (since nothing relevant had less than 100 health)


Shot power is a lot weirder, but looks like it can be handled:
1:1 for implosions (which do damage by formula, not by their actual base attack value) and warheads (who don't use their supposed "attack" value at all, but a separate explosion-on-death value)

10:1 for the counterattack posts and decoy drones and wormhole command posts (whose attack values existed primarily to insult them, rather than hurt their targets), can ignore.

49:1 for the NkI Zenith Polarizer because it has a 49 base attack which would become 1, which is actually a concern: if nothing else were done, this would be a 50% nerf to the zenith polarizer, because its base damage IS used (it's very low because it's multiplied by a function based on target armor).  But it's a simple fix: change base attack from 49*mk => 100*mk and change seconds-per-salvo from 2 => 4.

75:1 for the Spire Shield Guard Posts.  Their attack's pretty trivial anyway, so a small change to it isn't a concern; can ignore.

78:1 for the MkI Youngling Vulture because it has a 78 base attack which would become 1, which is worth fixing since it has a low base attack that is then multiplied by a function based on the target's lost health.  So just change base attack from 78*mk => 100*mk and change seconds-per-salvo from 5 => 6 (a 20% nerf for a 28% buff, but close enough)

98:1 for the MkII Zenith Polarizer, but that will be dealt with anyway by the change provoked by the MkIs

153:1 for the MkI Impulse Reaction Emitter, because it has a 153 base attack which would become 1.  So we can change base attack from 153 => 300 (roughly doubling power) and seconds-per-salvo from 2 => 4 (halving power).

150:1 for the MkI Laser Gatling, because it has 150 base attack which would become 1.  So we can change base attack from 150 => 200 and call it a day because these needed a buff anyway.

140:1 for the MkI Autocannon Minipod, because it has 140 base attack which would become 1, So we can change base attack from 140 => 200 and (see laser gatling note)

131.5:1 for the MkI Lightning Turret, because it has a 263 base attack which would become 2.  So we can change base attack from 263 => 300 and seconds-per-salvo from 15 => 17 (from 17.53 => 17.64 base dps per target)

120:1 for the MkI Vorticular Cutlass, because it has a 360 base attack which would become 3.  Melee ships don't respond so well to seconds-per-salvo changes, so we can change base attack from 360 => 400 (11.1% buff) and change cap from 392 => 352 (11.3% nerf).

118:1 for the MkI Tachyon Microfighter, because it has a 590 base attack which would become 5.  So we can just increase the base attack power from 590 => 600 and call it a day, since it's not a big change.

Similar with the Zenith Viral Shredder (585), Armor Ship (795), Spire Teleporting Leech (560, a bit more of a change but it's UP anyway), Zenith Hydra Head (780), Vampire Claw (880), Champion Polarizer Module (550), and MLRS Guardian (660).

All the other inherent nerfs would be less than 10% so I'd probably just bring those to the nearest 100 base power.

(note: I didn't put *mk on all the attack power figures, but I would do those changes for the whole lines and not just the mkI versions)


Armor and Armor Piercing would have similar issues (probably a bit more of it), but probably it'd just be a matter of rounding up.


Armor Damage should probably also be deflated, dunno.  Not many things have it, and some have very small values of it.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Tridus

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,305
  • I'm going to do what I do best: lecture her!
Re: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps
« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2014, 12:03:29 pm »
That looks pretty good. Maybe you should do that first, then worry about just how far to buff superweapons afterward.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps
« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2014, 12:10:36 pm »
That looks pretty good. Maybe you should do that first, then worry about just how far to buff superweapons afterward.
I think that makes a lot of sense, yea.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps
« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2014, 01:05:57 pm »
It sounds like it makes sense, but does this mean things will actually have attack power of 1,2,3,5, etc?

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps
« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2014, 01:08:07 pm »
It sounds like it makes sense, but does this mean things will actually have attack power of 1,2,3,5, etc?
The stuff with the really low base attack power, yes.

Bear in mind those raw numbers are only actually used in-game if you're playing high caps on epic combat style.  The other settings multiply from there.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps
« Reply #87 on: May 24, 2014, 01:09:57 pm »
Ah. I don't think I've ever played on either of those. (forgot epic combat style existed, actually :) )

Offline Fleet Unity

  • Full Member Mark III
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
Re: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps
« Reply #88 on: May 24, 2014, 01:16:28 pm »
It sounds like it makes sense, but does this mean things will actually have attack power of 1,2,3,5, etc?
The stuff with the really low base attack power, yes.

Bear in mind those raw numbers are only actually used in-game if you're playing high caps on epic combat style.  The other settings multiply from there.

When this is changed does this mean that all ships from all five expansions will be changed as well?

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Crazy Idea Re: Turret Caps
« Reply #89 on: May 24, 2014, 02:00:17 pm »
When this is changed does this mean that all ships from all five expansions will be changed as well?
Yes.  Don't worry, this change by itself won't really impact much in a new game.  In old games most units that were damaged will be suddenly up to full health (so I'll need to make sure that doesn't happen to broken golems, heh) but that's about it.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!