Core Shield Generators- time sink

[HitmanN]

I personally like the idea of keeping a few primary core generators that you HAVE to take and putting them on worlds with Factories so you HAVE to take at least one factory, which fits with the game and isnt too terrible an imposition.

There, do that, and nothing else. Try that for a few weeks, a month or two, and then see how it turned out, BEFORE adding anything more than that. This change alters the game progression and particularly many playstyles tremendously. Such a change should be introduced in small steps, or discussed long and hard before anything is actually added in game. This just came so out of the blue and seems so out of place that no one can seriously be surprised some people react this way when their favorite playstyle in their favorite game is thrown upside-down, or when their freedome of choice is suddenly limited. Blocking their tactics is NOT the solution. Encouraging and rewarding playing differently would be much better, and would maybe even allow these people some time to adjust to new mechanics, OR to choose to accept them as a harder way to play, IF they so desire. What these rewards and encouragements would be, I dunno. That is something that should've been discussed throughly as an alternative before even thinking about adding limitations. AI War has been great because of its freedom, and I'm sure a lot of players want that freedom to remain.

I've stated plenty of solutions that increase choices and the requirement to expand, for example using only one CSG network. By all means, if someone can prove those solutions invalid, please do. I'm intrigued and want to discuss this further.

[keith.lamothe]

I don't mind going after one network, if there are choices in how to do that, but having to go after multiple networks and multiple specific planets really drives AI War away from its origins, having choices.

I'm still not really getting this one:

1) You choose which ARS you don't capture.
2) You choose which B generator (Advanced Factory) you capture.
3) You choose which C generator (Fabricator) you capture.
4) You choose which D generator (counter-attack-post-planet) you capture.
5) You choose which E generator (other planet) you capture.

And as you're scouting you may have to choose between attacking some really hard-core defended position with (say) a C generator or hoping that you find an easier one when you've been able to scout more.  Granted, I'm not sure how scouting is balanced nowadays, it was swinging back and forth between easy-to-scout-entire-map and can't-scout-more-than-2-planets-out for a while there.

I am going to play 3.120 and 4.041 unless this game becomes fun again. This has broken the game. It's not fun anymore.

I concur. I have no desire to update the game to have this sort of setup as a whole. Something needs to be different about it, seriously.

Have You Even Played A Game With These?  At the very least, to establish in your own mind whether you have the facts straight?

Of course, it's your time to do with as you choose, I don't mind that.  But we simply can't make progress on difficult problems if we can't try some remotely-daring solution.

[Wingflier]

I honestly think a fair compromise would be to just add a mode that you can turn the "Core Shield Generators" off.  Some players simply obviously vehemently disagree with this mechanic, and if they want to play without it, what harm is there in letting them?  You wouldn't complain if someone played with 10 planets, astro trains and mines off, or on difficulty 1 with full handicaps, but I feel that these things are just as much a bastardization of the game as playing without "Core Shields".

I realize that you don't want people playing a certain way, but is it worth forcing people to stick with an outdated version and/or losing players over it?  I like the "Core Shields" mechanic personally, and I understand your reasons for doing it, but in this situation I don't see the harm in making it an option like most everything else.

[keith.lamothe]

Even as it is now, you can completely ignore the core shield generators if you're playing the fallen-spire campaign and intend to play through to the alternate victory.

The current state of affairs is primarily (not entirely) a series of knee-jerk reactions very similar to the fallout from previous changes (some of which were reverted or heavily changed, some of which stood), which tends to settle out fairly soon.

Figuring out where to go from here requires feedback based on actual play

[Suzera]

Since people asked, this is the strategy pre-HW defense shields (Cauhua is the sole defense planet for warp waves and backflow):





Notice the 84 AIP after victory. The attack waves were trivial and there was no risk to the game AT ALL after destroying all the data centers on the map, even on 8 or higher difficulty. Everything on that map that is a p9 is/was a data center, P0 is the ones that are destroyed. Anything except Z. Power generators was entirely pointless to get, and even those were just a handy extra that you would lean towards if it was in the attack/defense lane to the AI HWs.


I don't have a good screenshot of my .044 map strategy, but it involved taking 6-8 planets for economy as usual, then deepstriking all the data centers on the map, then deepstriking one planet with a counterpost to take the minimal wave, capture the planet, build 20 science stations to get the knowledge, then self destruct the planet so warp waves will still only go to my defense planet, leaving a gap where no one owns a planet, then doing the same for the rest of the HW defense fields. Floor AIP was just that powerful, and ending games with sub-100 AIP (and thus making defense trivial) was just way too easy.

For .045 with smoothing out the mk1 to mk2 AIP break, it isn't so comparatively punishing to do high AIP over low AIP as long as you're still smart about getting the most bang for your AIP buck. I'm a bit more on the fence about whether floor AIP is the only best strategy anymore with the current state. There were no choices before if you were playing to win quick and efficiently. All planets were judged almost entirely on warp link count (and thus +5 AIP for each one which is huge) and whether they were in the attack/defense lane rather than whether they had factories, gravity drills, ion cannons or so on. It was really really boring.

Personally, I am not happy with the HW Defense field idea requiring planet capture and I would rather see the AI start reinforcing from adjacent planets or somesuch to make narrow but deep strategies that lead to huge gaps between colony planets and thus get to the AI HW quicker a little more rough since planets adjacent to the lane would no longer be things to ignore, rather than forcing capture of planets. I think it would be neater if they were more like mini homeworld fights (maybe the strength of core worlds) and increased AIP by a less-than-full-planet amount instead, such as replacing the warp gate (which is also a lead in for making it more advantageous to take more planets in that area because a warp link is down). It's not too big a deal for me personally though right now because I can just drag some colony ships along under a FF or something on the way to all the generators to hit, and rebuild a dock to replace destroyed ships as well while I am taking the knowledge before moving on and scorching it so the warp links won't direct ships how I don't want them to.

In my opinion, the goal should be to have many strategies be viable, not just any person's particular pet strategy be the best. Whether that speeds up or slows down the game in the end remains to be seen, and that can be fixed one way or the other too (not the least by taking more HWs to speed things up or taking fewer to slow things down which is already in game).

[HitmanN]

1) You choose which ARS you don't capture.

I want to decide whether I want to capture any ARS's. Or if you really have to force me to capture some, make sure it is the only single thing you force me to capture. Otherwise you're just holding my hand for half the campaign.

2) You choose which B generator (Advanced Factory) you capture.

I just recently finished a game without an Adv Factory (because the closest I could find one was seeded far beyond both AI home worlds). It was challenge enough playing without it. Having to require to get one from a place like that is just overkill.

3) You choose which C generator (Fabricator) you capture.

I want to decide whether I want to capture planets with Fabricators.

4) You choose which D generator (counter-attack-post-planet) you capture.

I dunno if I'd even go there if I really didn't need to. I'd like to make the choice myself.

5) You choose which E generator (other planet) you capture.

This sounds ok, provided that there are plenty of E generators on 'other planet' planets, so that you can actually have a bit of say in the matter of what planet to capture. Just seed 'em far from home if you want me to expand for them.


Without those five steps, AI War has been fun so far. Freedom!!! *Braveheart impression*

Have You Even Played A Game With These?  At the very least, to establish in your own mind whether you have the facts straight?

I haven't, and I don't think I currently want to. Normally I can embrace change, but this is just too out there in scope even as a concept. As much as you may find that odd, it is how I hoenstly feel, as a player, as a customer.

You want me to destroy all Core Guard Posts before I can hurt the AI Home. Sure, that's fine. It's just one (1) step:
1) Destroy all Core Guard Posts

Simple.

Now if the same could be applied to the AI Home Shielding.

1) Destroy X number of primary CSG nodes.

Simple.

Requiring five steps, scouting for five different things, learning five different types of nodes, having to switch between five different filters... it's all is just simply overdoing it.

But we simply can't make progress on difficult problems if we can't try some remotely-daring solution.

True, but you applied five remotely-daring solutions at once. That's what I see as the problem.

[Suzera]

There's usually plenty of B-D generators on the maps I play. Most of the time, two are nearish my starting point and make good economy base planets that fit nicely behind a hard chokepoint. I do think it would be nice if counterposts did not spawn on ARS planets though, since if there is one on any ARS planet, that is the one I automatically do not take. I'll probably go mantis that.

[ShadowOTE]

Figuring out where to go from here requires feedback based on actual play

Fair enough. Considering I don't have much free time at the moment, I'm trying not to strongly advocate one way or the other. That said, I think an ideal solution would encourage taking more planets in general while leaving the door open for situational use of deep strikes, which is why I like the idea of secondary nodes just making the AI homeworld defenses orders of magnitude more powerful - hope you can ride out the increased waves long enough to further weaken the AI's defenses, or pull a desperate deep strike and hope you've done enough damage already? Of course, striking this sort of balance is anything but easy, and it's not surprising there's some heated debate going on. That said, if you're arguing vehemently against a mechanic you haven't even tried, then your arguments aren't likely to be convincing. Play a bit, outline what you like, don't like, and why. I think you'll find your arguments are far more persuasive if you do.

Suzero, check your links - I got 403 Forbidden messages when trying to view the images.

[Suzera]

Fixed links. Forgot that host has somewhat specific rules for where it shows images and allows links.

[zebramatt]

HitmanN, unless you actually play with these, your criticisms are based solely on conjecture. That doesn't necessarily mean they're not at all valid; but it certainly makes them less so.

Why not try a game with them for a while, see what happens? I mean, it's hardly going to make you like them less, is it? 

[wyvern83]

Sorry to hijack this conversation, but ARS's, Adv Factories and Fabricators ARE generally valuable, but with this setup we're not capturing the planets because of those, but because we have no other choice if we want to every complete the game. They are no longer a strategic choice. And let's face it, sometimes the unlocks aren't worth a huge detour. This sort of stuff should always be for the player to decide.

No problem, I was actually going to ask both of you originally. Thanks Hitman, I can see where both of you are coming from now.

[keith.lamothe]

Ok, I'm going to be incommunicado for a while, so wanted to kind of lay the cards on the table for a moment:

1) If the core shield network mechanic didn't change significantly at some point, it would probably be the only feature in the history of AI War to not do so
2) But we can't "negotiate with terrorists", so to speak: basically if someone says "I'm not updating until that's taken out", it actually creates a significant reason why we cannot take it out in the short term.  We really appreciate player feedback and make heavy use of it, but we don't do "demands".  It wouldn't be good for the game.
3) Seriously, while theorizing and whatnot does have some value, we need play-based feedback.
4) I apologize for getting a bit overly, ah, "enthusiastic" in some of my responses   I'm not normally a "call it as I see it" sort of person, but when dealing with folks who are (I'm looking at you, machine), I tend to return the favor.

[ShadowOTE]

Hmm... I like the maps. They certainly do a great job illustrating what Chris is concerned with. The lines drawn on there are kinda neat too (even if they are just MS Paint ): it would be cool if we could "draw" on the galactic map, especially in multiplayer.

[Suzera]

What you don't know is that I was kicking myself for wasting time taking two more planets than I should have until I won. That was a relatively sloppy game.

[Wingflier]

What you don't know is that I was kicking myself for wasting time taking two more planets than I should have until I won. That was a relatively sloppy game.

You explained your reasoning behind the planets you took and such, what you didn't explain was HOW you did it.  How in the world can you get past so many enemy planets without getting eaten alive along the way? Transports take damage and can't be repaired without an allied planet, and maybe it's something in Zenith Remnant that allows you to do that, but I'm curious as to how you can "skip" so many planets.  What unit composition do you use and how do you keep them alive during the deep raids?