Poll

From Chris: Just in the interest of gauging support, do you:

Really love the new mechanic as-is.
3 (7.9%)
Like the new mechanic fine as-is.
6 (15.8%)
Not really care one way or the other.
8 (21.1%)
Slightly dislike it.
13 (34.2%)
Actively dislike it.
5 (13.2%)
Hate it with the fury of a thousand suns.
3 (7.9%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Author Topic: Core Shield Generators - Discussion  (Read 17118 times)

Offline ShadowOTE

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Re: Core Shield Generators - Discussion
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2010, 12:22:33 am »
Hi x4000 and Keith. Your conversations here are a testament to your willingness to communicate to the player base. I think you are handling the situation in a respectful manner and I applaud your time investment into communicating with the players extensively. Thanks for much more player-created DLC to come!

Agreed. +1 to general awesomeness!

Offline HitmanN

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Re: Core Shield Generators - Discussion
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2010, 12:25:36 am »
Similarly, perhaps ironically, HitmanN is also most at odds with this and is a uniquely helpful contributor.  He's been doing all this art that he graciously lets us use for free, and in general has been helping with suggestions and bug reports close to as much as you have.  The last thing I would want to intentionally do is drive either of you away.  Just from a selfish standpoint, it would be stupid.  But driving customers away isn't good business, in general.  If you're feeling unwanted, that's not the intent, but by all means if there are other ways you'd rather spend your time, that's your right.  I can't expect everyone to stay around forever, though it makes me more than a bit sad every time someone disappears -- especially if there's bad blood, as seems to be the case here.

Heh, you won't be losing me that easily. All along I've simply wanted to express my dislike of how the new mechanic has been built and how it seems on paper, and to convey the feeling I have that I don't want to update my game into that at this time. Doesn't mean that I never will, even if the mechanic stays as is, but I'm already convinced it'll make things less fun for me when I do update, so much that I'm genuinely worried about beginning to dislike the game as a whole, and at the same time I don't want to miss on the other new features, so I can't keep playing an old version forever.

What you do with that knowledge is ultimately up to you to decide. :) It's honest feedback, and I've simply been offering alternatives for consideration, and attempting to seek understanding as to why this mechanic is necessary. If I keep repeating myself or asking the same questions multiple times, it just means I haven't found my way there yet, and potentially never will. Again, what you do with that knowledge is up to you to decide. ;)

I'm not demanding changes, but hoping for some. Posting a lot about them is a way to keep that hope alive.

Offline x4000

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Re: Core Shield Generators - Discussion
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2010, 12:36:25 am »
HitmanN -- thanks for that.  Would you mind clarifying something for me, in the interest of my understanding your dislike of this feature?  Actually, this question goes for anyone who doesn't like it.

Question for anyone who doesn't like this feature
Okay, so you don't like this feature.  On moral, semantic, theoretical, whatever grounds.  Fine enough -- for the moment, for this question, please set all of that aside.  Please no responses about it being confusing, semantically unsound, or any other similar abstract arguments -- they'll just muddy the core thing I'm driving at for the moment, which is player behavior and gameplay.  All of the responses against this so far have been about very abstract things that aren't overly quantifiable ("reduction in choice" is subjective, as I hopefully demonstrated in a recent post in this thread).  And yet the level of opposition some folks have is making me wonder if I'm overlooking some sort of playstyle that I'm not aware of, or something.

Anyway, the question is this: during your play of AI War, how will this feature affect your game in a way you feel is negative?  

In other words, what about your experience is going to be different (and apparently worse)?  Is there anything that's going to be better from it?  Are there aspects you like?  Is this making you spend time on activities that you would other not, or closing off avenues of gameplay you value?  What are they?  Again, the more concrete you can be, the better.

Example: "Normally I just take 6 planets and then deepstrike the AI home planet.  Now I have to spend several extra hours getting ARSes, and by the time I do, the AI is a lot stronger and the whole thing is more involved."

Of course, that specific is an example of it doing precisely what it is intended to do, but still.  
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Offline Montaire

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Re: Core Shield Generators - Discussion
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2010, 01:06:38 am »
X4000

It will take me longer to beat the game. I already take about 15 or so hours to beat a 120 planet game.

It adds what feels like work.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Core Shield Generators - Discussion
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2010, 01:09:32 am »
It will take me longer to beat the game. I already take about 15 or so hours to beat a 120 planet game.

It adds what feels like work.
But what do you normally do that takes 15 hours (which sounds in the normal range for a 120 game)?  How many ARS's do you take, do you get an advanced factory, do you get a fabricator, how many other planets do you take?  My guess is that in those 15 hours you're already fulfilling the additional requirements or nearly so.  These new changes aren't meant to impact a game that long at all, really.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Core Shield Generators - Discussion
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2010, 01:11:21 am »
One thing that could save a little of the "compulsory" time is to have the shield generators die with the AI command station.  The AIP has already been paid at that point, and the player is already allowed to lose the planet in the current model, etc.

That said, I'm often surprised by how much people don't like to actually claim the territory they pay the AIP for, but that's a valid choice.
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Offline ShadowOTE

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Re: Core Shield Generators - Discussion
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2010, 01:16:19 am »
Excellent question, and one that drives at the heart of the matter. I'd have to sleep on it for a more complete answer (especially since I haven't played using the new version yet), but in short it comes across to me as having ton of redundant AI defenses isn't very interesting, especially from the perspective of grand strategic challenges. Yes, having tons of shield generators all over the place is a great strategy (and something skynet would be well advised to do!), and yes the bonus goodies (that we should go for anyway ;) ) are awesome, but it begs the question WHY the AI doesn't do anything else with those structures, given the huge variety of AI defenses seen (which go on for pages at this point!). Why not build the 2-3 core generators, then use the others for something else, that improves the AI's defense in depth?

The other issue I have is this: many times it's only worthwhile to take 2-3 ARS along the way, as the others are so far away that other options are more attractive - EMP and lightning warheads, for example. Forcing us to take those extra ARS stations strikes me as diminishing the value of alternate tactics and strategies.

Another potential issue i just thought of- what happens on snake maps, or other situations where you may have to go through the AI core worlds to get at their defenses and shut them down? Having not played snake (I prefer tree, though I'm branching out), I'm going on the assumption that it's not always the case that the last 2 worlds are the AI homeworlds, so I'm curious as to why you might fight through 30 worlds, skip the first AI homeworld, jump another 15 worlds and skip the 2nd HW, then fight to the end of the chain just so you can disable the core shields and the various secondary generators, only to turn back around so you can finally hit the homeworlds (from a game design perspective, that is). Just knocking out the primaries would be enough in such a situation, assuming one or two is a bit beyond the last HW. But that's assuming I'm not completely mistaken as to how snake maps work ;)

Offline Montaire

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Re: Core Shield Generators - Discussion
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2010, 01:22:29 am »
Yes, I'm getting several Advanced Labs, and at least 1 or 2 Advanced Factories (Depends on the topography).

How does that effect the shields ? I read the shield (just 30 seconds ago, I'm in a game right now) and it says nothing about either of those things.

If you are just trying to stop the rush, make it simple. The AI has a special shield on the gate leading to his home. You have to get 6 pieces of special Sample AI Tech to learn to defeat them. You can get a piece by doing any of several things (Get an Advanced Lab, Get a Factory, Capture a Human Colony, etc etc). That still leaves me choices in how I chose to execute my strategy. The shields don't, right now they say "you must capture THIS system to advance".

I guess its the loss of choice I am upset about.

Still love the game though, will still continue to play it.







It will take me longer to beat the game. I already take about 15 or so hours to beat a 120 planet game.

It adds what feels like work.
But what do you normally do that takes 15 hours (which sounds in the normal range for a 120 game)?  How many ARS's do you take, do you get an advanced factory, do you get a fabricator, how many other planets do you take?  My guess is that in those 15 hours you're already fulfilling the additional requirements or nearly so.  These new changes aren't meant to impact a game that long at all, really.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Core Shield Generators - Discussion
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2010, 01:23:32 am »
I believe my answer of "i do not want to be forced to take ars" still holds.
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Offline Echo35

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Re: Core Shield Generators - Discussion
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2010, 01:25:18 am »
I believe my answer of "i do not want to be forced to take ars" still holds.

The couple of Shield Generators I've found in my game were not on an ARS planet.

Offline Nightchill

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Re: Core Shield Generators - Discussion
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2010, 01:25:41 am »
Anyway, the question is this: during your play of AI War, how will this feature affect your game in a way you feel is negative?  

In other words, what about your experience is going to be different (and apparently worse)?  Is there anything that's going to be better from it?  Are there aspects you like?  Is this making you spend time on activities that you would other not, or closing off avenues of gameplay you value?  What are they?  Again, the more concrete you can be, the better.

I have been playing my current game for about 18 hours so I most probably won't update until it's finished (I'm on 4.042)

I have 20 planets and am about to attack the 1st AI homeworld.

If using the latest beta I would not be able to.
I only have 3 of the 5 ARS. (one is too far from anything to be worth going after, and the other is closer to the 2nd homeworld than I want to be at the moment)
I don't have either of the advance factories yet (as I have captured many mark IV ships, an AF would not really let me build much).

My games last long enough with me capturing enough planets to make we want to have to capture something 4 or 5 hops away that I don't want just so I can continue.

How about putting a core shield generator on each of the planets with an ARS, advanced factory, fabricators and counter attack guard posts and have to capture a certain number (8?)

Offline Vinraith

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Re: Core Shield Generators - Discussion
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2010, 01:36:09 am »
If you are just trying to stop the rush, make it simple. The AI has a special shield on the gate leading to his home. You have to get 6 pieces of special Sample AI Tech to learn to defeat them. You can get a piece by doing any of several things (Get an Advanced Lab, Get a Factory, Capture a Human Colony, etc etc).

There is a certain poetic simplicity to that, and if it was done right I think it might actually meet all the design goals.

Offline shugyosha

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Re: Core Shield Generators - Discussion
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2010, 01:36:44 am »
First and foremost this post is meant to be constructive. I'm not a native speaker so maybe some words are more harsh than intended:

Anyway, the question is this: during your play of AI War, how will this feature affect your game in a way you feel is negative? 

I very much like the intended goals of the new mechanic which I would define as the following:
1. During a game there should not be the option to take only very few planets just in order to rush to the AI Home planets and destroy them.
2. Related to this (and I think some confusion came from not actually speaking about it) is the problem that it is possible to win the game with a much lower AIP than intended. I think 300-400+ when entering the first AI's home planet is intended. Current AIP reducers and hopping only to a few strategically important planets can let you enter the AI home planet with ~150 or even lower. The problem is perceived not as a problem with the AIP reducers but with the low number of planets a player has to capture at minimum.
(3.) Provide more or less fixed goals you can see on the map between "survive" and "kill the AI's" in order to give the player a feedback about his progress.

That said I think the realization is weak:
1. A player has to do something but doesn't get something. Black Hole Generators, Grav Drills, ARS on heavily defended planets are all good in terms of game design. You have to fight through difficult effects, defenses but you get rewarded or you can decide to deal with a grav drill for example by going around it strategically or destroy it. These structures are goals on your way to victory but optional ones. Shield Generators let you capture some planets you don't want to capture and you don't get much from them.

2. The mechanic for B-E generators is flawed. Other than taking a planet with a Generator B-E anyways because it is otherwise strategically important it makes no sense to take B-E Generator planets unless you scouted major parts if not the whole map. It may very well be the case that a Generator planet is one of the planets you will use for staging your final assaults. Therefore Generators are no goal in between but aside from A Generators only the so called "road bumps" you have to clear towards the end of the game.

3. The mechanic lead players to take planets and progress the AI according to goal 1&2 but as you can see these planets are mostly worthless to the player or they will take it because of other reasons. In my current game I first had to go through several filters to see the planets I have to take then there were no planet I would like to take at all. But I still have to kill D&E Generators so I will take and leave two planets, progress the AI by another 40+ points and immediately leave the planets again. My incentive to take the planets in earlier stages of the game would be low. (40 planets map I control 9 planets and have to take one or two on top of that to get to the AI).

4. The mechanic not only does not reward the player but it punishes players that are not deepstrike/rushing the AI. I think this is the major reason. The argument that if optional everyone would deactivate it is flawed. Some already said they won't and if you want to win a game more easily than intended, activate Easy Golems, Easy Spire and so on. There are already ways to make the game easier while hunting for achievements. Although I think the majority of people just likes the game and plays it as intended and with this mechanic these people get punished for some people who seem to exploit game mechanics of a purely single player/coop game.

5. If you see this as a road bump as described above it is added to a list of road bumps: AI Eye (which doesn't really deblob), Raid Engine, Alarms. Most people are fine with these and I only dislike the AI Eye personally. But if you add too much of these road bumps onto planets in the future every planet will have to be treated by the player somehow in order to progress.

The solution:
1. If the core of the concept should stay intact there have to be an award tied to "more work".

2. If the goal is to make the player hold more planets then make him hold it. Zenith Power Generators for example are only good for the player as long as he controls the system and it isn't destroyed. ARS and Generators on the other hand don't really care about the planet.

3. I think the mechanic to achieve the above goals is critical to the game and defines it to its core. Instead of fiddling with the current mechanic I would toss around ideas first for a long time.

EDIT: 4. The mechanic of Generator networks that self destruct if a piece of the link is broken and which grant invulnerability seems rather forced to me story-wise. Whatever the mechanic will be in the end I could have more style. For example a network of adjacent planets, a kind of Astro Train thing which supplies the AI homeworld with Energy from Tankers, the aforementioned pieces of lost data to be recovered to destroy a forcefield...

In short: I had to kill some generators and all I got is this T-shirt?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 01:49:32 am by shugyosha »

Offline wyvern83

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Re: Core Shield Generators - Discussion
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2010, 01:37:35 am »
I believe my answer of "i do not want to be forced to take ars" still holds.

The couple of Shield Generators I've found in my game were not on an ARS planet.

Was it an older version game originally? The spawning for all 5 networks didn't convert well for existing saves but works fine now in fresh games. Neither of my existing games have A, B, or C networks for example, although they should.

Offline Echo35

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Re: Core Shield Generators - Discussion
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2010, 01:40:16 am »
If you are just trying to stop the rush, make it simple. The AI has a special shield on the gate leading to his home. You have to get 6 pieces of special Sample AI Tech to learn to defeat them. You can get a piece by doing any of several things (Get an Advanced Lab, Get a Factory, Capture a Human Colony, etc etc).

There is a certain poetic simplicity to that, and if it was done right I think it might actually meet all the design goals.

Agreed. There could be a set of objectives that would allow you to "unlock" the AI homeworld essentially. Would allow for some dynamics to the game, and even a use of the fancy Journal and Objective screens ;D

This would also give a more 4X feel too it. In Civ, for example, you can't just win by Military domination. I think having an array of sub objectives to complete first could make it feel more like you're doing more than just "Build Fleet, Kill AI".