Core Guard Post Proposal

[TechSY730]

Gosh, I don't think I'll touch this particular discussion today... it's kind of icky and complicated. Reducing the number of core guard-posts reduces the fun, right? :p ...right? :/

One could argue that it wouldn't reduce the fun if the core guard posts were upped in strength to compensate.

But on the other hand, maybe having more places where ships can "gather" is more fun. It's hard to say.

[Toranth]

No one's mentioned the defenseive exo-waves?  I mean, once I've dealt with the 50+ H/Ks that spawned as soon my fleet entered the system, I'm not sure there's anything you could do to the Core guardposts to make them a challenge.

[Kittens]

My take: Making the core guard posts any tougher (longer to kill) would be more annoying than fun, for reasons already mentioned by other people. Notably: there are already exos, MkV ships, shields, and other good stuff to slog through.

Making some of the posts more lethal is probably fine though.

[zoutzakje]

I will play a 7/7 base game only game, just to see how hard it really is to beat the game. Normally 7/7 is no problem to me anymore, but that's indeed because of all the extra help we get in the expansions. If I can not beat the game anymore, I think we should just leave the core guard posts as they are, and focus on the regular guard posts / guardians instead.
Perhaps we should all play a 7/7 base game only game. We've been spoiled with all the expansions way to much.

[_K_]

I do agree the core guard posts are quite weak and useless right now. But as pretty much everyone has noted, the problem is that there are also MKV ships which are usually the real challenge.
Personally, i tihnk the best solution would be to somehow make the AI reinforce the homeworld much slower, both when on alert and when not, and apply the buffs mentioned above, maybe with slghtly less HP (like 2x less).

[PokerChen]

I do agree the core guard posts are quite weak and useless right now. But as pretty much everyone has noted, the problem is that there are also MKV ships which are usually the real challenge.
Personally, i tihnk the best solution would be to somehow make the AI reinforce the homeworld much slower, both when on alert and when not, and apply the buffs mentioned above, maybe with slghtly less HP (like 2x less).

Decreasing the reinforcements while buffing the guard posts would indeed make the AI homeworld a more significant experience.

[Hearteater]

For those feeling killing the guard posts will be a grind: it's 36 seconds.  And that's assuming you have no fun toys, just Bombers.  The Electric dies in 10 seconds to Missile Frigates with no losses.  The Leech can be out-ranged.

The only thing that ever makes a home world take long to clear, besides the mobile forces and defensive exo, are Force Fields and Fortresses (and formerly AI Eyes).  I would strongly support no Fortresses under Force Fields, because that is just insanely annoying.  It would still leave the possibility of a Spire Shield + Fortress, but that's a trade off because then you don't get one of the more lethal guard posts next to the Fortress.

[keith.lamothe]

FYI, the homeworld-defense exos only happen if you've had Fallen-Spire offensive exos thrown at you (iirc, has to be the "announced" ones, too, not the "chase" ones).  So they don't really factor into the discussion of balance; if you've done enough FS to get a significant homeworld-defense exo, then you probably won't get a chance to see what type the core guard posts are before they vanish in the photon lances.

[TechSY730]

I would strongly support no Fortresses under Force Fields, because that is just insanely annoying.  It would still leave the possibility of a Spire Shield + Fortress, but that's a trade off because then you don't get one of the more lethal guard posts next to the Fortress.

Would you suggest this rule in general? I don't see why the AI home should have a defensive restriction that normal planets don't. (The AI eye thing was more due to the nature of the external invincibility and the CPA and Raid guard posts, not so much just because it was an AI home)

If so, I can see that it would be reasonable. We cannot place fortresses under forcefields practically (due to the firepower thing), why should we let the AI stack these massive defensive items together for NO opportunity cost?

As you mentioned, Fortress + Spire guard posts is reasonable, due to the opportunity cost (no noticeable extra firepower in return for more durability).

[Nodor]

Technical questions:

Doesn't the forcefield rule for DPS apply to the AI? 

Since you have to use bombers anyway, does it matter if you have to smash a forcefield first?

[zoutzakje]

this game is not about things being fair. I say let them have fortresses under forcefields. There will be tiny little fortress pieces all over the place soon anyways. yes, there is a possiblity new enemy forces will spawn while you're busy trying to kill forcefield(s) and fortress with your bombers. But that just means you have to make another another important decision: Leave bombers there and hope they can kill at least something before they get wiped out. Or retreat, but slowly watch those forcefields and fortresses regenerate while the rest of your fleet is trying to kill the spawns.
they already removed the possiblity of AI eye's spawning on homeworlds for us, we don't need to make the homeworlds any easier than that. In fact, we're looking for ways to make things tougher lol.

[Diazo]

The general consensus seems to be that currently, the Guard posts are not a threat, it's the ships they spawn as reinforcement waves that make them a threat.

In that case, give the homeworlds the same anti-hacking response mechanic that the SuperTerminal and Knowledge hacking have.

By this I mean once you kill your first core guard post, the AI starts throwing waves of ships at you as long as you have ships in the homeworld system (or the homeworld on alert?), but the wave size only increases each time a core guard post is killed.

This would count across both home systems, making the second AI homeworld tougher then the first. (At the moment both homeworlds are about the same difficulty, not counting stuff like the Avenger).

It also helps keep things interesting as this would be a homeworld (and hacking response) only mechanic.

I'm not sure how easy this would be to implement, I'm assuming since the base logic is present in the anti-hacking response it's not a huge deal to do.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Doesn't the forcefield rule for DPS apply to the AI?

No.  That rule was added because human players were stuffing insane turret balls under piles of ff's.  If it had just been a handful of (albeit very powerful) dangerous units under 1-3 ffs we probably wouldn't have needed to do that

Since you have to use bombers anyway, does it matter if you have to smash a forcefield first?

It matters quite a lot if the bombers are threatened by anything, as the ffs greatly increase the time necessary to get to the gooey center.

[keith.lamothe]

In that case, give the homeworlds the same anti-hacking response mechanic that the SuperTerminal and Knowledge hacking have.

By this I mean once you kill your first core guard post, the AI starts throwing waves of ships at you as long as you have ships in the homeworld system (or the homeworld on alert?), but the wave size only increases each time a core guard post is killed.

Probably low enough numbers could be used for that, but I think in general this approach would have a high chance of making the homeworlds incredibly punishing in at least some cases.

Still, it's interesting, and could make homeworld battles more dynamic.  It might require adjustments to normal reinforcements to the HWs, etc.

[Hearteater]

On Fortress+Force Field outside of homeworlds: you can bypass them, ignore them and take the world anyway (I did this to two systems in my current AAR), or cut off supply rendering the Fortress inert.  So you've got several solutions unlike on a homeworld were you need to send in your Bombers and watch as the ships hiding under the Force Field rip them up.  This can be a very long and boring process.