Author Topic: Core Guard Post Proposal  (Read 15247 times)

Offline Hearteater

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Core Guard Post Proposal
« on: March 20, 2012, 03:41:02 pm »
Some people have felt some of the recent changes have swung the balance too far in the player's favor, and I agree to an extent.  One area I feel the AI is much weaker than it should be is one its home worlds.  In particular, I find the Core Guard Posts very weak.  They pop like bubbles (a single cap of Mark I Bombers will kill most of them in a single volley) and except for the Core Heavy Beam Guard Post have basically no DPS.

If it weren't for Force Fields, Fortresses, AI Eyes, Raid Engines and CPA Posts, the home worlds would hardly be more than a brief speed bump.  So I've run some numbers and have thrown together revised stats for all the Core Guard Posts except the Raid Engine and CPA.  I've modeled a full ship cap of Mark I-III Bombers (or whichever triangle ship is best) attacking each guard post as accurately as I can and included the results.  My target "time to kill" is around 36 seconds, which I feel is just long enough to feel like a substantial obstacle without feeling like the burden of clearing a Fortress.

All the below values are at High ship caps on Epic speed.  Unless otherwise noted, each guard post retains any unmentioned stats, abilities, and immunities.  I've pulled a few stats such as hull-type multipliers and range in even when I made no changes just to present as clear a picture as possible.

As one final note, the following stat revisions assume AI Eyes no longer appear on home worlds.


Common Abilities: Radar Dampening Range 5,500, Regen Time 180:00, Tachyon Beam Emission (2,000 Range)

Common Immunities: Mass Driver Ammo, Artillery Ammo, Sniper Shots, Fusion Cutters, Tractor Beams, Reclamation, Paralysis Attacks, Transport, Swallow, Nuclear Explosions, Being Insta-Killed, EMPs, Repair


Core Missile Guard Post
Health: 45 million
Hull: Artillery
Armor: 800
Damage: 500,000 x4 (5 second reload)
Range: 36,000
Armor Piercing: 3,000
Abilities: Insta Kills <= Mark 5, Engine Damage 12,000
Multipliers: 6 Medium, 8 Ultra-Light

With a whopping 2400% DPS increase, this post won't let you ignore it for long.  It still deals less damage than the Heavy Beam Guard Post, but at least now its missiles will be felt.  You can imagine how bad its original damage was that +2400% was required to give it a voice.  In addition the engine damage cripples most starships heavily (they are typically 100k engine health), making its missiles feel like they are dealing truly catastrophic damage.

Somewhat optional, the Core Missile Guard Post acts as a mini-Ion Cannon V with less range and a lower rate of fire.  This helps make it feel like fleet ships have no business getting in the way of these devastating missiles.  Note that for this ability to work properly, the missiles must be able to target units immune to instant kills since they still deals substantial damage.  Otherwise the instant kill ability should just be skipped.

To Destroy: 36 seconds with 32 Mark III Bombers destroyed

Core Heavy Beam Guard Post
Health: 45 million
Hull: Heavy
Armor: 1,600
Damage: 500,000 x9 (6 second reload)
Range: 13,000
Armor Piercing: 40,000
Abilities: Heavy Beam Cannon AOE (overkill damage strikes a new target)
Multipliers: 2.5 Medium, 1.75 Heavy, 4 Swarmer, 3.25 Ultra-Light, 3.5 Refractive

Originally the Heavy Beam Guard Post was by far the most damaging Core Guard Post.  As part of the health increase on Core Guard Posts proposed here, I've toned down its damage about 44% so it doesn't eat Bombers by the ship cap and laugh.  It still deals a ton of damage, has x7.5 the health, and twice the armor.  As you can see from the casualty figures below, it is plenty deadly.  For consistency with the human Heavy Beam weapons, I adjusted its AOE style to pass-through damage.

To Destroy: 36 seconds with 116 Mark III Bombers destroyed

Core Electric Guard Post
Health: 45 million
Hull: Composite
Armor: 1,600
Damage: 15,000 x1 (8 second reload)
Range: 13,000
Armor Piercing: 999,999
Abilities: Strikes All Targets in Range (400 hits max, up to 10 hits on one target), Paralysis x2
Multipliers: 4 Artillery, 2 Neutron

A hefty damage boost with double the target cap of Lightning Turrets/Electric Shuttles, combined with the health increase gives this Guard Post enough damage your fleet will actually feel it.  The paralysis effect is a nice damage reduction, but also makes ignoring the Guard Post and cruising past it more painful, if not suicide.  Don't forget however that Missile Frigates are basically immune to this Guard Post and get x6 damage.  It would be amusing to have this post sometimes spawn with Counter Missile Turrets nearby.  At least then it would take a little more effort to remove this guard post with Missile Frigates.

To Destroy (with Missile Frigates): 10 seconds with a single Mark I Missile Frigate losing 77.9% health

Core Leech Guard Post
Health: 45 million
Hull: Heavy
Armor: 2,400
Damage: 30,000 x40 (2 second reload)
Range: 5,000
Abilities: Reclaims Enemy Ships, 45x Tractor Beams (4800 range)
Multipliers: 3 Medium

Finally able to deal enough damage that ships actually get reclaimed while attempting to chew through its much improved health.  The tractor beams make sure it gets a piece of any fleet attempting to bypass it.  This is the shortest ranged Core Guard Post and it has a radar dampening range greater than its attack range (by only 500 units) so it is always possible to Destroy this post without it even returning fire if you aren't being too heavily harassed by the rest of the system.  But if you have to smash and grab or even just fly by, it will borrow a nice chunk of your fleet.

To Destroy: 36 seconds with 80 Mark III Bombers reclaimed (ignoring reclaimed unit dps)

Core Neinzul Melee Guard Post
Health: 90 million
Hull: Close-Combat
Armor: 3,200
Damage: 250,000 x5 (1 second reload)
Range: 0
Armor Piercing: 5,000
Abilities: Can't Use Wormholes, Attacks Are Self-Damaging, Target Seek Range 5000, Max Ship Speed 14 Within 8000 Range, Regen Time 15:00
Multipliers: 2 Scout, 3 Light, 3 Neutron

With more health and enough damage to be a credible threat, the Neinzul Melee Post becomes much more dangerous.  But the additional Gravity Drain effect makes them disruptive as well.  The lower regeneration time is primarily to offset their self-damage.  Multiple attacks on melee units probably aren't ideal, but it should still allow it to kill multiple fleet ships since they tend to stack up some especially with the gravity drain effect.  Giving it a single small radius AOE melee attack could work as well, but it would need to take self-damage from all targets hit. Ultimately it is still self-damaging so something as simple as Mark I-III Fighters is still a win.  In fact is kills itself in just 72 seconds even when nothing is firing back!

To Destroy (with Fighters): 35 seconds with 175 Mark II Fighters destroyed (this is middle-ground performance.  It kills more total Marks attacking the IIIs but dies faster, and lives the longest but is least effective against the Mark Is)

Core Zenith Bombard Guard Post
Health: 45 million
Hull: Artillery
Armor: 800
Damage: 10,000,000 x1 (15 second reload)
Range: 53,000
Armor Piercing: 10,000
Abilities: Grenade Launcher AOE (8 additional targets, 1000 unit radius)
Multipliers: 2.5 Medium, 1.75 Heavy, 4 Swarmer, 3.25 Ultra-Light, 3.5 Refractive

Since everyone loves Bombards so much, this post hits like 22 Mark V Bombards from further away, twice as fast, with about 10% more total health.  While certainly a post to keep large, fragile (and not so fragile) units away from, actually destroying this post should be fairly simple.  The challenge appears when you can't get to it, but it can reach you.

To Destroy: 36 seconds with 27 Mark III Bombers destroyed (assuming optimal AOE damage)

Core Spire Shield Guard Post
Health: 392,000,000
Hull: Heavy
Armor: 0
Damage: 2,500 x6 (2 second reload)
Range: 5,600
Abilities: Armor Damage 100, Spawns Reinforcements When Damaged
Multipliers: None

Very minimal stat changes, the primary one being armor rotting which will allow it to support the ships it is protecting.  The damage buff is effectively negligible considering it has no armor piercing, but at least it will look like it is trying.  The main change is whenever the post loses 10% of its health, it spawns additional Mark V ships equal to the AI difficulty.  At 50% and 10% health remaining, it surges, spawning five times as many ships.

To Destroy: 5.4 minutes with 30 Mark I Bombers destroyed (not counting reinforcement ships)

Core Sentinel Guard Post
Health: 45 million
Hull: Heavy
Armor: 10,000
Damage: 30,000 x12 (2 second reload)
Range: 9,000
Armor Piercing: 5,000
Ammo: Laser
Abilities: Can't Use Wormholes
Multipliers: 16 Light, 4 Neutron, 8 Swarmer

Certainly more damaging and much tougher than before, this post has enough armor that it actually takes a bit longer to kill.  Its firepower isn't all that impressive, but its mobility and durability make it an unpredictable threat.  And don't overlook its x16 Light hull damage multiplier, or you will find all your Light units vanishing.  Its ammo changes to Lasers to give an interesting interaction with Deflectors which are a Swarmer ship and normally wrecked by the dozen.  Definitely a guard post you'll notice, but armor rotting it down to just 8,000 armor gives it a lifespan of only 36 seconds against Mark I-III Bombers.

To Destroy: 60 seconds with 55 Mark III Bombers destroyed

Core Zenith Fortress Guard Post
Health: 60 million
Hull: Polycrystal
Armor: 10,000
Damage: 32,000 x100 (3 second reload)
Range: 8,000
Ammo: Flame Wave
Abilities: Counters Dark Matter, Repair Rate 2.5
Modifiers: 1.25 Ultra-Light, 1.25 Swarmer, 1.25 Light, 1.25 Refractive, 1.25 Close Combat, 1.25 Composite, 1.25 Artillery

This is basically a cross between a Fortress and a guard post.  It has less health and range, but it makes up with that in shear firepower and much improved multipliers.  It is in fact itself Polycrystal, making Fighters the choice unit to remove it.  It does put out 80% of a Mark III Fortress's DPS so expect losses whatever you bring to take it down.  Its multipliers make it better against mainly lighter units, but even against heavy units its damage is quite respectable.  Ultimately though, you can go all-on with your fleet against this guard post, unlike versus a Fortress.  The ammo-type change keeps Bulletproof Fighters from being immune to it, since they are already immune to Core Leech Guard Posts (and Spire Shield).

To Destroy (with Fighters): 36 seconds with 100 Mark III Fighters destroyed

Core Neinzul Spawner Guard Post
Health: 45 million
Hull: Neutron
Armor: 5,000
Damage: 250,000 x1 (2 second reload)
Range: 83,000
Abilities: Tachyon Beam Emission (4,000 range), Spawns Cockroaches, Spawns Cockroaches On Kills
Modifiers: None

This guard post is already fairly solid with its insane range and the danger of setting off its cockroach spawn.  To add a small element of consistant additional fleet harassment though, whenever it kills a ship it spawns several Neinzul Cockroaches at the destroyed ship's location.  One/mark of the target would be simple.  But possibly more interesting might be to track hits and have any death of the target spawn two or three Cockroaches.  The image of it firing Cockroach larva into your ships is very amusing.

To Destroy: 36 seconds with 18 Mark III Bombers destroyed (ignoring Cockroaches)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Core Guard Post Proposal
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2012, 03:43:09 pm »
We could just make them all have the core-raid-engine's ability :)

*hides
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Offline zoutzakje

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Re: Core Guard Post Proposal
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2012, 04:32:48 pm »
I agree that a lot of the core guard posts (and regular guard posts as well) need some love. Most of them are way to easy to kill. Hearteaters suggestions might be overkill though. Homeworlds aren't always an easy challenge.
But then again, it might be fun to implement this and see how it works out. I always like the ' OMGHOLYCR...!!!' effect whenever I spot a homeworld lol. Having some tough structures on it would only make that feeling better :P
I would also like to see new types of Core Guard posts, to make life even more interesting =) Like a core self destruct guardian for example, which would pretty much be an overpowered martyr :p
but yeah, guard posts in general need some sort of buff. But since we had a whole bunch of player buffs already, I figured Keith was already thinking about doing something with the guard posts to rain death and destruction upon us :P

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Core Guard Post Proposal
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2012, 04:52:14 pm »
I definitely support new type of Core Guard Posts and I'm sure they've had an eye on both existing and new ones.  I just wanted to toss out some stats that seemed to give core posts a more toughness and bite, without making them into insane Fortress-level grinds.  I've actually been refining this post for about two weeks.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Core Guard Post Proposal
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2012, 05:44:30 pm »
But what about those people who only play base game?

And what about the hundreds of mark V units who all swarm on any decent threat?

I think it would be better handled by having a few super guard posts on the next expansion, so as to not punish those who use the base game.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: Core Guard Post Proposal
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2012, 05:50:00 pm »
Both regular guard posts and core guard posts need a balance pass, and I wouldn't mind some more variety in core guard posts either.

How should core guard posts be balanced? Like, say, Mk. VII guard posts? (aka, if there is a normal guard post type that is very similar to a core guard post type, the core guard post type would have stats similar to that of the that normal guard post type with its stats scaled like it was a Mk. VII unit) Core guard posts would remain Mk. V, of course, this is only to determine a baseline "toughness" for them.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Core Guard Post Proposal
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2012, 06:12:08 pm »
Quote
As one final note, the following stat revisions assume AI Eyes no longer appear on home worlds.
I'm thinking about giving one of the core guard post types the eye's retaliation-spawn ability, and making Eyes never spawn on homeworlds.  That would avoid losing the scenario variety but also make it so that you could take out the "eye" before all the other guard posts since it wouldn't be relying on the "die once all the guard posts die" logic.

Objections to this?  Suggestions on which core guard post should get the added ability?  "Sentinel" is the one that makes sense name-wise, but not sure if it would be too brutal mechanically.  Normally I would make a new one for the new ability, but that requires art support I currently lack, and I don't think much is lost by just folding it in.  And yes, this means there could be more than one on a homeworld ;)

Quote
Common Immunities: [...], Artillery Ammo
Meaning the artillery golem's shots?

Quote
[missile post] Somewhat optional, the Core Missile Guard Post acts as a mini-Ion Cannon V with less range and a lower rate of fire.
Nuh-uh, sorry ;)  Mechanically difficult to get the targeting right, as the ion blaster has shown us (which I'll probably be able to fix, but not sure it would work so well here even then).

Quote
[beam post] For consistency with the human Heavy Beam weapons, I adjusted its AOE style to pass-through damage.
Is it not already doing that?  Weird.  It's certainly got the look of a really overbuild HBC :)

Quote
[melee post] Multiple attacks on melee units probably aren't ideal
Honestly they aren't even possible :)  I mean, I could probably make it do that, but it'd be easier to just give it a really short range point-blank-aoe attack (same kind as the electric shuttle / electric post).  Other than that sounds good; the grav drain effect is particularly funny ;)

Quote
[shield post] The main change is whenever the post loses 10% of its health, it spawns additional Mark V ships equal to the AI difficulty.  At 50% and 10% health remaining, it surges, spawning five times as many ships.
Not likely to do that anytime soon since it'd be new mechanics.

Quote
[cockroach post] To add a small element of consistant additional fleet harassment though, whenever it kills a ship it spawns several Neinzul Cockroaches at the destroyed ship's location.
Again, would be a new mechanic but can keep it in mind.

[electric post] Yea, that's looks good, particularly the chain-hit mechanic from the lightning turrets.

[leech post] Sounds fine to me.  Bear in mind that the reclamation changes in 5.031 may make this more efficient than you anticipated ;)

[bombard post] Looks fine to me.  Not sure the other players will like it ;)

[sentinel post] Sounds fine.

[zFort post] Same here.

Anyway, will keep this in mind next time I'm working on AIW.  Also meaning to revisit the normal guard posts, to at least make them fight back a bit better.
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Offline Nodor

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Re: Core Guard Post Proposal
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2012, 06:27:43 pm »
I feel like this is a forest for the trees post.  Core/home planets are hard because of the ships on them and core shields.  The posts do not need to be hard once I've taken 15 planets to make myself able to hit them.

Also, as a balance notes, most of the changes of late are not "player favored".  Play against an AI using the new Sentinal Frigates or the Mine enthusiast in 5.031.   Yes, ships have been buffed.  But the AI has more of those ships - if it has that ship type.  The same things with mines.  The new superterminal you can't hack forever?  Yeah, it's a good/fun change, but it's more dangerous and less powerful now.  Playing against the scorched earth AI under the new K raiding rules?  50% of the planets in galaxy now provide zero knowledge, whereas you could K raid 100% of them before. 

I am not saying any of these changes are bad.  I am saying that I don't think they have been on balance neutral, and in fact in general have favored the AI due to the difference in ship caps between players and AI.  However, because they allow players to optimize around good ships for them, players are enjoying the new ships - and probably not seeing them in the AI hands due to the large number of ship options.


Offline Hearteater

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Re: Core Guard Post Proposal
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2012, 08:23:50 pm »
@keith:
The common abilities/immunities are what they have now.  I didn't make any changes, I just copy and pasted in what they currently have.  All current Core Guard Posts are immune to the Artillery Golem apparently.

I also like the AI Eye type mechanic on the sentinel.  I actually find that particular guard post ideal since you can bait that to come over to the wormhole so you can kill it easier.

@Nodor
If everything before you get to the home system is what makes it hard, then that's when you should win.  Why make the player clear out a trivial batch of guard posts?  Of every system in the game, clearing the home system should be the most challenging, or at least the most unique.  The current Core Guard Posts are pathetic.  Aside from Raid Engine and CPA, they'd actually be tougher if they were just Wormhole Guard Posts.  I've tried to keep their health reasonable by making them killable in 36 seconds with just Mark I-III Bombers.  If you add in Light Starships, Bomber Starships, Golems, Spirecraft, and what have you, they'll still drop extremely fast.  But at least your fleet ships won't accidentally clear the entire system for you.

Offline Nodor

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Re: Core Guard Post Proposal
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2012, 10:09:06 pm »
@keith:
The common abilities/immunities are what they have now.  I didn't make any changes, I just copy and pasted in what they currently have.  All current Core Guard Posts are immune to the Artillery Golem apparently.

I also like the AI Eye type mechanic on the sentinel.  I actually find that particular guard post ideal since you can bait that to come over to the wormhole so you can kill it easier.

@Nodor
If everything before you get to the home system is what makes it hard, then that's when you should win.  Why make the player clear out a trivial batch of guard posts?  Of every system in the game, clearing the home system should be the most challenging, or at least the most unique.  The current Core Guard Posts are pathetic.  Aside from Raid Engine and CPA, they'd actually be tougher if they were just Wormhole Guard Posts.  I've tried to keep their health reasonable by making them killable in 36 seconds with just Mark I-III Bombers.  If you add in Light Starships, Bomber Starships, Golems, Spirecraft, and what have you, they'll still drop extremely fast.  But at least your fleet ships won't accidentally clear the entire system for you.

I've attacked home worlds and lost twice in the last 2 years.   I underestimated my first avenger.   The second time, I didn't feel like taking my time, and we had missed the 2 CPA guard posts in the unscouted adjacent world.   Having lost 4 games in the last 2 weeks that never closed on home worlds, I'm fairly certain that home worlds are not my problem.

After seeing (not surviving) condensed randomness like 3 exo-galactic strike forces, mining golems, a CPA, a Counter attack guard post to your factory 4 planet,  and 3 normal waves in a 15 minute time block, I'm not excited about anything that sounds like "you will need 3 hours of micro to neuter this planet".

I also suspect I will be driving up a path to my local AI Home world, dropping my warp jammer on the adjacent planet, killing all of the guardposts on the homeworld and all the adjacent core worlds, then driving a similar line of attack over to the other AI Home world and doing the same.    Once this is done, I will divide forces such as to kill both command stations at the same time.   Victory & Avengers avoided.

For me the fun is in the dealing with the random on the way, not the final battle.   Spending 6 hours to kill the final big bad boss, is not what makes AI War special.  It's thinking through the steps that get you there. 

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Core Guard Post Proposal
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2012, 10:25:48 pm »
I feel that the final home planet should be a tough fight. Maybe not a 6 hour slog, but still tough.

After all, this is the AI's most valuable unit. Wouldn't you take great pains to secure your homeworld, and if the threat from the AI starts becoming credible, start focusing your attention on the homeworld? Why shouldn't the AI do the same?

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Core Guard Post Proposal
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2012, 11:15:17 pm »
I would accept an increase in the power of core guard posts IF the number of them are reduced so as to reduce their reinforcement count. Right now, the challenge is that if you can bring down one, you choke off the reinforcement count but the process of even choking off one can be impossible in some situations because of the massive number of units.

Like most of the game, the challenge is not the posts themselves, but the units they spawn. But just amping up their power while letting them spawn out a superior unit in greater numbers just makes them feel grindy at best and hair pulling (I'm stuck but I'm not dying yet) situation.

I still wonder if people's ideas of what difficulty they should be are influenced by expansion imechanics. I wonder, for example, if people would complain they are not tough if you used just base game and thus could not use autobombs, matyrs, bombards, blade spawners, or any golem. Or spire ships. And homeworlds should not increase in power due to these mechanics in any way specificly other then increased attacks, otherwise there is little point in getting in the first place. Getting increased firepower to just have the ai spawned a magnitude of greater power defeats the purpose.
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Offline Nodor

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Re: Core Guard Post Proposal
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2012, 01:23:28 am »
I feel that the final home planet should be a tough fight. Maybe not a 6 hour slog, but still tough.

After all, this is the AI's most valuable unit. Wouldn't you take great pains to secure your homeworld, and if the threat from the AI starts becoming credible, start focusing your attention on the homeworld? Why shouldn't the AI do the same?

I agree.   But since reinforcement points bleed to homeworlds they do.  I see a huge stack of Mark 5 ships that want to smash my face.    The posts are places they hang out, not the foes that want to smash my face. 

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Core Guard Post Proposal
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2012, 01:26:59 am »
Yea, I agree. Toughening up the core guard posts in return for fewer guard posts seems like a fair and fun trade. How many core guard posts should a home planet have? 1, maybe 2 more than "normal" planets?

Time to stick this up on mantis?

Offline PokerChen

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Re: Core Guard Post Proposal
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2012, 01:31:40 am »
Gosh, I don't think I'll touch this particular discussion today... it's kind of icky and complicated. Reducing the number of core guard-posts reduces the fun, right? :p ...right? :/