Poll

Which DLC would you like to see next?

Unit - Plasma Generator
1 (1%)
Unit - Support ships
9 (9.4%)
Unit - Heavy Turrets
11 (11.5%)
Unit - Carriers
18 (18.8%)
Unit - Interdictor Starships
3 (3.1%)
Tweak - Mobile repair stations FRD
9 (9.4%)
Tweak - Overkilling OK if no other targets in range
16 (16.7%)
Feature - Dedicated server
4 (4.2%)
Feature - Start Anywhere with Anything
3 (3.1%)
Feature - Construction templates
8 (8.3%)
Feature - Destination ETA
9 (9.4%)
Feature - Screenshot Function
5 (5.2%)
Feature - Transport Features
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: February 28, 2010, 09:15:06 pm

Author Topic: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21  (Read 7400 times)

Offline I-KP

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Re: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2010, 06:41:21 pm »
Please note that "Start Anywhere with Anything" is something that I've preemptively vetoed, it's specifically against the game design.  If you want the "perfect" scenario, you'll have to really work for it in the scenario editor.  My suggestion: don't always play with your favorite starting unit or your ideal starting location.  That's exactly what will kill the game for you, making it seem like every game is always the same because you intentionally are skipping out on all the variety it really offers.
do {
   game.generateMap;
} while (unit.teleportBattlestations = 0);

I've been in more than a few MP lobbies that do this.  ;)
I hope they don't do that, as that would always result in a map without teleport battlestations ;) (would work if you used == though, psuedocode aside)
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Offline Minty

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Re: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2010, 07:17:37 pm »
My own 2k: Heavy Turrets and Overkill Revamp.

What with all the lovely, shiny new ships out there, I feel their stationary counterparts could use some love too..

And many's the time I've watched my bomber-group sitting there doing literally bugger-all as they wait for that last, single, solitary missile from a mkI Frigate to finish off the lightning-turret.. It gets even worse with regenning units, of course..  :-\

Offline x4000

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Re: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2010, 09:14:09 pm »
Please note that "Start Anywhere with Anything" is something that I've preemptively vetoed, it's specifically against the game design.  If you want the "perfect" scenario, you'll have to really work for it in the scenario editor.  My suggestion: don't always play with your favorite starting unit or your ideal starting location.  That's exactly what will kill the game for you, making it seem like every game is always the same because you intentionally are skipping out on all the variety it really offers.

I read your arguments in the Wiki, but I am not convinced. I miss this feature, we are wasting a lot of time clicking through maps in order to get the ships we want.  

I never play a casual game of AIWar. This game is a real challenge. I am playing against AI level 7, and I win perhaps one out of every ten games. Given this sort of opposition I always have a plan, and this includes knowing in advance what kind of bonus ship I shall try out this time around.

Your counterargument is that if I use the same ship type config every time, the game will be boring in the long run. This is only partially true. My opening moves will tend to be the same, but when I find an advanced space lab, randomness sets in, and in most games this means a change of plans. If the day arrives, where my opening config is so strong that I am sure to win the game no matter what other ships I acquire during the game, then your argument holds. But I am afraid that day never comes. And if it should come, I can always go to AI level 8. So there really is no reason why this feature should be vetoed. Accordingly I voted for it on the poll.

I respect that the final decision is yours. But you changed your mind on (unmentionable topic), so maybe we can make you change your mind on this one, too?

I've changed my mind on a variety of topics, for a variety of reasons.  I try to be as open-minded as possible.  But, this is not one that I'm currently feeling at all inclined to change on.  From one angle, really, how much time are you wasting clicking through maps to find ones that you want?  A minute or two per 8-12 hour game?  That's not something I am really that worried about -- I think of it rather like re-rolling for your character at the start of a great many RPGs.  Yes, you can keep going until you get almost exactly what you want.  But there's a huge pressure to simply settle for something that is sort of what you want, and thus try something new.

In RPGs, that mechanic tends to be based around a pure gamble -- if you find something almost right, and then click re-roll again, then you've totally lost the one possible scenario and might well not find anything remotely as good for a long time.  Of course, some RPGs compensate with a certain number of skill points that you can then allocate as you wish to buff your character further.  With AI War, you can copy your favorite seed so far to the clipboard, and then go back to it if you are frustrated (or copy a new one to the clipboard when you find something better).

I am no stranger to re-rolling map seeds in order to find a "better" map than the current one.  Sometimes I just don't like a layout, or it doesn't have any ships that I am that interested in playing at the moment.  But what I end up settling on in the end is something a bit random, with positive and negative aspects, which I view as highly desirable.  With multiplayer, this might be compounded with certain players really wanting a certain ship.  If it's only two players, then you can probably find a map with a what both of them want fairly quickly (in my experience), although that might then create geographic constraints.  Then the remaining players (I tend to play 4-player) are left to pick from amongst the remaining ships, which introduces yet more variety.

I firmly believe that this process leads to highly beneficial results, even if it does result in a minor bit of aggravation to some (or even a fair number of) players some of the time.  This is something I've thought a lot about, and have had ample chance to witness in various forms in all my years of multiplayer gaming, and I feel it's important.  If you look at a lot of modern FPS games (especially team-based ones), the same general theory is in play in a great number of them: weapon/vehicle drops are often random, and class slots are often limited, so in a given game it might be rare for you to get exactly everything that you want, just the way you want.  So instead you have to experiment, and learn to function as part of your team, rather than just always going with your ol' standby.

You can claim that this reduces the strategy of the game, but there again I disagree: real generals don't get to set every last parameter for the battles they will go into, and they don't even really get to choose all the force they will have (if you have no more tanks, you have no more tanks).  So a big part of their strategy, at the start especially, is figuring out how the heck to deal with the hand they have been given.  There are a huge, huge number of very useful ships in the game, such that there should be multiple top-tier ships in almost any given map seed.  Thus I really don't feel that this affects the difficulty of the game overmuch, it simply makes players use more than a single overall strategy (a primary goal for the game's design).  Plans never survive contact with the enemy, right?  Consider the map generator your first contact with the enemy -- as would be the case for a general in any real conflict, whose first order of business is finding out what the general terrain looks like and thus where the enemy can be presumed to be, seeing the possible deployment points given that data, and seeing what sort of forces he/she has been given from higher command.

(This was such a good followup question that I added it and my response to the wiki.)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 09:20:34 pm by x4000 »
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Offline CPTKOOL

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Re: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2010, 01:05:50 am »
I agree with x4000, half the fun is adapting your strategy to the map layout and unit combinations your presented. If everyone could choose any start point and any start unit in a co-operative match, you would just go for the best combination of units, so that your combined fleet has no real weakness for the AI to exploit and you would also choose the most defensible start positions (or completely separate start positions to maximize the early expansion of your territory). As x4000 said, the map generator is the first challenge you’re presented with, how to position your team within the area you’re allocated and then how to make the best of the units your presented. This 'randomness' doesn’t limit the strategy, but adds a layer.

Although I do like to mess around with different units to see how good they are in different situations and it would be good to have the option of easily choosing a start unit I have yet to try. Or perhaps even a sandbox mode, allowing players to try out different technologies they're not quite sure about unlocking in their actual game; knowledge being the precious commodity it is.

Mind you I have yet to play a co-operative match, so I could be wrong. These are just my thoughts on the matter

Offline x4000

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Re: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2010, 01:18:14 am »
Thanks for your support, CPTKOOL. Sandbox modes and scenario creation (which is much the same sort of thing) is, I think, to be a feature of the next expansion unless a better/more popular anchor feature comes along.  So I think that sort of focused experimentation will be something that becomes available through that mechanic.  Though, I do view realtime experimentation and analysis of results on the battlefield as a key part of the game in general, too.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2010, 01:51:47 am »
Thanks for your support, CPTKOOL. Sandbox modes and scenario creation (which is much the same sort of thing) is, I think, to be a feature of the next expansion unless a better/more popular anchor feature comes along.  So I think that sort of focused experimentation will be something that becomes available through that mechanic.  Though, I do view realtime experimentation and analysis of results on the battlefield as a key part of the game in general, too.
I think that would be weather... :)
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Offline x4000

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Re: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2010, 01:53:42 am »
Well, that also.  I guess I see the next expansion as having two different sorts of foci, one more always-gameplay-oriented (weather in the second one, like grand strategy in the first), and then having another kind of marquee specific feature (scenario editor in the second one, golems in the first).  Or something along those lines, anyway.  I haven't forgotten about the weather. :)
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Offline vonduus

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Re: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2010, 05:18:52 am »
...really, how much time are you wasting clicking through maps to find ones that you want?  A minute or two per 8-12 hour game?  

Got me there. And your argument about real generals having to fight with what they've got is a good one, too. So I shall continue clicking through a lot of maps until I get what I want, it is no big deal.

Btw, is there somewhere in-game where you can see what seed number you are actually playing?
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Offline HellishFiend

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Re: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2010, 06:13:01 am »
Got me there. And your argument about real generals having to fight with what they've got is a good one, too. So I shall continue clicking through a lot of maps until I get what I want, it is no big deal.

>_>
Time to roll out another ball of death.

Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2010, 06:18:55 am »
...really, how much time are you wasting clicking through maps to find ones that you want?  A minute or two per 8-12 hour game?  

Got me there. And your argument about real generals having to fight with what they've got is a good one, too. So I shall continue clicking through a lot of maps until I get what I want, it is no big deal.

Btw, is there somewhere in-game where you can see what seed number you are actually playing?

I generally click a few times to get a map I like as well, but 99.9% of the time I spend ingame :)

Mostly I click the maps to find one that looks interesting with the unit I want. And perferably not too many entrances into my own system :P

Recently, I dunno why, I have taken a liking to 90 planet maps with realistic layout, but in my multiplayer games me anda  frind usually go for large 120 maps :).
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Offline vonduus

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Re: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2010, 06:38:21 am »
Got me there. And your argument about real generals having to fight with what they've got is a good one, too. So I shall continue clicking through a lot of maps until I get what I want, it is no big deal.

>_>

This is a valid implication - I am not a real general, so I can do as I please. ;D
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2010, 08:50:00 am »
Got me there. And your argument about real generals having to fight with what they've got is a good one, too. So I shall continue clicking through a lot of maps until I get what I want, it is no big deal.

>_>

This is a valid implication - I am not a real general, so I can do as I please. ;D
In other words:

Code: [Select]
if(I.AmGettingPaidFor(thisActivity))
    FollowRules();
else
    DoWhatIWant();

;)
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Offline vonduus

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Re: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2010, 10:28:14 am »
In other words:

Code: [Select]
if(I.AmGettingPaidFor(thisActivity))
    FollowRules();
else
    DoWhatIWant();

;)
[/quote]

lol :D
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Offline x4000

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Re: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2010, 11:14:21 am »
:)

And, yep, to answer the earlier question: you can see the current map seed (and a bunch of other related lobby settings) from hovering over the little globe icon on the left of the galaxy map window.
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Offline vonduus

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Re: Community DLC Suggestion Poll: Week of 2/21
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2010, 12:13:41 pm »
Super, we lost a great map the other day because we did not know where to look.
If you miss the alert, you die. If you get the alert, you die. Summa summarum: You die. (Kierkegaard on CPAs)