Community Brainstorm - The State of Fortresses

[LaughingThesaurus]

For the sake of keeping Fortresses close to their roots, as an overhaul won't be very friendly for long time players, I propose something simple, if a bit vague. There are a couple ways I know to go about it, but the basic idea is:

Fortresses need to be interesting to attack.

The Special Forces thing must have done something great to enhance the experience of attacking a fortress, but the fact that this is still an issue must mean that it either hasn't done a great job, or AI War players are gluttons for punishment. Either way, I feel that a Fortress just having one unit that can beat it is wrong. I don't like counters-by-design. I don't particularly like units that are made specifically to be beaten by a specific other unit.

So, Fortresses should have multiple layers of offense, while keeping their same DPS. If possible, I'm thinking something similar to modules, only destructable. The modules are outranged by missile frigates, who need to pull off the first phase of the attack to 'clear the way' for bombers. Fortresses may also get deployable fighter drones, which you'll need your own fighters around to intercept, while the bombers go to work. Attacking a Fortress, ideally, should be a multi-stage, more complex affair.

So, to round it up...
Fighters > Drones
Drones > Frigates and Bombers
Frigates > Turrets
Turrets > Bombers
and most importantly
Bomber is still > Fortress

Keeping it away from being too complex is also important, because if you throw in Special Forces, an attack like this could get very nasty.

[zebramatt]

Space fortresses are a bit of an oxymoron, really. Unnecessarily housing anything in a behemoth of defensive capability is always going to be a questionable choice in space warfare. What you want is something which breaks up offensive approaches but is mobile enough to reposition on the fly. It's got to be hardier than most of your kit to be worthwhile, obviously, and house or protect something of tactical or strategic importance. 

A lot of the ideas above fulfill those criteria but I'm thinking, for a bit of variation on a theme, what about:

A highly mobile unit with plenty of health which needs to entrench/arm and disarm itself before it care fire/move respectively. When armed it emits a gravity field to slow down approaching units; possesses a slow-firing, long range beam cannon (high damage output and penetrates multiple targets in a straight line); a short-range forcefield; and a complement of very short-range fighter drones.

[TechSY730]

Repeating something I said earlier:

I won't go into too much detail here (I'll wait for the brain storming thread), but I would like to keep the "mirroring" of the human and AI variants. Right now, the only difference between AI and human forts are multipliers to certain stats. In fact, every human/AI unit split short of home command stations are like this. I wouldn't like to see the AI fortress get an immunity or new ability that AI forts don't get, and visa-versa.

[relmz32]

I like the current state of Fortresses, baring super high hp.

[KDR_11k]

I like the current state of Fortresses, baring super high hp.

The AI forts have a huge amount of HP because they're far too easy to steamroll otherwise.

[Winge]

There are two key points that I have seen so far:
1.  Fortresses must fill a roll on defense.
2.  Fortresses need to be interesting to attack.

Finally, there is one more that I think should be tacked on:
3.  AI Fortresses shouldn't be overwhelming when combined with other AI defenses (Eyes and the new Special Forces).

There are two roles that I see needed on the defense:
1.  A means to stop large numbers of ships (stop != destroy, basically a turret supporter).
2.  Good defense against Starships and larger without Orbital Mass Drivers.

So, I see the Fortress as being similar to 'Heavy Beam' Defense, although with much fewer, more powerful, high armor-piercing shots.  So, while it can kill fleet ships with its main weapon, that is largely overkill.  It would also be Immune to Radar Dampening, but have less overall range.  To compensate and keep it from being too easy to take out with fleet ships, it would be given one or more of the following (or create your own, if you don't like mine):
1.  Paralysis/EMP secondary attack.  Think of a cross between the Grenade Launcher and the Riot Tazer.  This makes you split your forces, bring EMP immune (Starships being insufficient, due to the Main Weapon).
2.  Launchable drones, similar to the Hive Golem.  Would store 3/time interval, one of each Triangle Type.  Drones would build up slowly, so timing their release would be important.  Drones released on death, if that comes first.
3.  Usable ability.  Thinking something like Meteor from SoaSE Advent Starbase.  A shield ability could be another possibility.  Energy would regenerate slowly, so that abilities had to be timed with some consideration.  AI forts would get slightly higher regen, since they will be easier to trick.
4.  Aura to boost allied turrets/guards.  Could be a strong, local munitions boost.  Or something like 'reduces incoming firepower for nearby allies'.  Note that the Fortress would NOT get the benefit of this aura (to encourage attacking it while getting turret/guard-shredded).
5.  An explosive death.  Could be like the self-destruct guardians.
6.  Attrition damage on retreat.  Again, similar to Starbases in SoASE.

I wish I could comment on the Modular Fortresses, as they seem like another solution--I am waiting on AS until it reaches Steam, so I've only played around with the trial version.

[chemical_art]

While I can see the need for a anti starship and above structure, spider turrets already very devastatingly disable enemy ships by blowing out their engines, and even have logic to prioritize blowing out engines. They have a very high cap and are immune to radar dampening. This is saying nothing about other methods that are unique you mentioned like paralysis.

With current targeting logic, unless forts are only able to target starships or above, they will frequently will do overkill if they are meant to be anti starship, because at most the targeting logic distributes by hull, not size.

This is not criticizing mind you, just a statement of facts in hope of guiding discussion.

[Winge]

While I can see the need for a anti starship and above structure, spider turrets already very devastatingly disable enemy ships by blowing out their engines, and even have logic to prioritize blowing out engines. They have a very high cap and are immune to radar dampening. This is saying nothing about other methods that are unique you mentioned like paralysis.

With current targeting logic, unless forts are only able to target starships or above, they will frequently will do overkill if they are meant to be anti starship, because at most the targeting logic distributes by hull, not size.

This is not criticizing mind you, just a statement of facts in hope of guiding discussion.

True, although you typically need to couple them with a lot more defense.  Looked it up, and a full cap of Spider Turrets will stop 16.3 ships per second.  Whether that is gamebreaking or just a nice bonus depends a lot on the system in question.  Also, there are a few ships that are completely immune to Snipers--most notable being the Siege Starship (I guess it moves slowly enough...).

The other factor is anti-starship.  I agree that the Fortress should be able to hit small ships.  I think that Keith has some idea of how to prioritize large ships...at least, that's the impression I got from some discussion on the Heavy Bomber Starship.

No offense taken; I too am interested in seeing where this whole discussion leads 

Edit:  now that you mention it, I really haven't played around enough with Area and EMP mines; those might give me some of the utility I was looking for...another toy to play with!

[chemical_art]

The heavy bomber cannot target smaller ships at all. That's why its effective against larger ships.

[Astilious]

Personally I would just like to see them tweaked a bit. Basically balance them so their cap DPS is closer to that of a turret against the ship it get bonuses but increase polycrystal multiplier to 0.1. Basically the fortress becomes equivalent to an expensive turret with low DPS but bonuses against everything BUT poly that makes it very effective. Against the AI you are not quite as forced into a narrow strategy range while still encouraging it.

Then there is the Human Modular Fortress. That needs to be processed in a nerf furnace (or maybe just made unavailable in non champion games so they are specifically for creating the champion defense contribution like the others (assuming the AI bonus against champions is increased, but that's another topic)). It would also be alright if the AI did more to deal with players using very few chokes (as it has a cap of 1) but that is another topic again.

[TechSY730]

The heavy bomber cannot target smaller ships at all. That's why its effective against larger ships.

I think he was referring to the Plasma Seige Targetting logic, where it prefers to go for big things, but can still target smaller things.

[chemical_art]

The heavy bomber cannot target smaller ships at all. That's why its effective against larger ships.

I think he was referring to the Plasma Seige Targetting logic, where it prefers to go for big things, but can still target smaller things.

Ah. I haven't noticed it myself , but maybe it does it.

[LordSloth]

Sometimes I have the feeling people mean something very different than I do when they say brainstorming. Let me be clear: the following is not a suggestion or proposed change, and I'm fully aware of the in-feasibility of it all. It was fun to think of though. I do have a more modest proposal, but I thought I'd lead with the insane one since "brainstorm" is in the title.

Operation Triple the Work:

Branch Fortresses into three distinct lines, all of which are available.

Modular MicroFortress: Five times the cap of a regular fortress, a tenth the firepower, a tenth the cost, and a fifth the health, and no repair beams. You can anchor up to three of them on a wormhole or asteroid. They get one support module such as; Gravity Drain; Sniper Railgun, Shield Buster (single target, large targets only, decent damage, bonus to structural/heavy), Spider Cluster, Paralyzer.

Stronghold: Similar to Warp Jammer Command Stations, you have a total cap of six, and it can be built in place of a regular command station. It integrate a single fixed radius modular shield that costs resources to repair. Alternatively, it can carry one long range missile similar to an AI missile post, to take care of stragglers, while technically not being a sniper weapon. It integrates several normal system functions by integrating Stardocks, Starship Constructors, neinzul regeneration, and energy collection (prohibiting one from being built in system, stronghold produces 50k energy). It does not have a repair beam, but it does have a significant amount of weaponry, roughly equivalent to half a cap of the MKI Frigates, Fighters, and Bombers. The range of its weaponry is only enough to return fire on missile frigates, taking the shield radius into account. This is designed to more self-sufficient than actually change the results of an incoming wave. Provides supply normally.

Fortress: Damage, Health, and Cost are reduced by a third. They get one heavy weapon module consisting of either a short range ion cannon, mini orbital mass driver, implosion burst attack (short range AoE) or gravity artillery.

A more modest proposal
Drone Support. Fortresses receive three modular launch bays for long range interceptors/bombers/slicers. In return, the human version gets reduce range. Flamewave damage is reduced to compensate. Health is reduced to compensate for the meatshield effect. Entire unit is rebalanced to require less of a hard counter, since the drone modules will counter various parts of the basic triangle. Will provide supply to only its own system.

[Winge]

The heavy bomber cannot target smaller ships at all. That's why its effective against larger ships.

I think he was referring to the Plasma Seige Targetting logic, where it prefers to go for big things, but can still target smaller things.

Ah. I haven't noticed it myself , but maybe it does it.

Actually, I was referring to a post where Keith said that the Heavy Bomber doesn't target fleet ships so that it focuses on larger ships.  I thought that he said that 'large ship preference' was doable...I think this was in an AAR.  If I spot it, I'll post a link.

Sorry for the confusion!

Edit:  found the post that was discussing it:  http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,11393.0.html
I appear to be in error, as it was a suggestion.  I cannot confirm whether 'prefers large targets' exists or not.