Choosing ships from an ARS.

[superking]

it might be just me, but I would like to be able to see what type of ship an Advanced Research Station unlocks before I capture it. There is no stratergy in choosing which research station to capture first (or if I should capture it or not) when all of them are random

[RCIX]

But if you knew which ships you'd get then it would be to easy. You'd just ignore the ARSes that didn't have "interesting" ships, and get what you needed. With this, the mystery is part of the fun. *predicts a complaint about the mystery being an excuse*

[superking]

But if you knew which ships you'd get then it would be to easy. You'd just ignore the ARSes that didn't have "interesting" ships, and get what you needed. With this, the mystery is part of the fun. *predicts a complaint about the mystery being an excuse*

Different players think different units are 'interesting'. There are no unique units that are supposed to be 'bad' or 'boring'. I can think of some I would describe as either niche units (eg, zenith sentinels) or difficult to use correctly (eg, deflector drones) but none that are outright better or worse.

I think what you mean is players would gravitate towards capturing the unit which they perceive as most useful to them at the time... which surely is stratergy and/or player decision making, and therefore better than pot luck given this is a stratergy game? 

[x4000]

I think that there are valid points on both sides.  And that's why fabricators and most of the other things that you get, you can see what you're getting and make strategic decisions there.  With ARSes, it's more about exploration (and espionage), and so you get what you will, largely at random.  I really don't see that changing for ARSes, as I'm quite enamored of that mechanic and think it serves the game well for the reasons RCIX mentioned and various other ones, but for most (all?) other capturable stuff that seeded in the maps, golems and everything else, the emphasis is on choice.

ARSes promote strategy by getting you to figure out ways to cleverly use the hand you're dealt, while the other capturables promote strategy by encouraging your to scout and figure out what you most want out of all the possible goodies.

[HitmanN]

I like surprises.

It's like crate spawns in C&C games, or Worms. You know there's a chance that the crate will just explode in your face, but you'll still want to pick it up, because it COULD be something good. It wouldn't be half as much fun if the crates had the contents written on them. You'd be exchanging fun for convenience.

At least in AI War your ships don't explode when you capture an ARS. You'll always get something, and no ship is totally useless, even if they're not your particular favorite. It's pretty much a win-win thing, special cases excluded.

[superking]

hmmm

if the subect is still open to discussion or comprimise, the first idea that comes to mind is giving MK III scouts the ability to detect the 'contents' of adv research ships: provides an incentive to unlock MKIII scouts while giving players the option of investing knowlege in return for an informed choice

[ShadowOTE]

That could be a valid option, though that could have some rather profound game mechanics impact.

[SgtScum]

At least in AI War your ships don't explode when you capture an ARS.

I dunno about your games but mine always seem to seed the ars in mark III and IV worlds so there are plenty of my ships going boom trying to capture them. 

[HitmanN]

'Trying to capture' is a different thing than 'capture'.

Though what you say is correct, the quest to capture an ARS is often perilous. Just not the capture itself.

Back on the topic, for those who still seek to know the ARS goodies, how about an expensive node (unlock cost) that reveals the info? It would allow you to see the ARS contents, but there's a price you'd have to pay for such extra convenience. For instance, 6000-10000 knowledge. With the node you might be able to reduce losses, in exchange for having less tech.

Since the info would be available to one player, they could inform the others of the contents as well, so the price could scale up depending on the number of players, like +2500 for each player. Or it could be a requirement for everyone to build the node. I like the first option better though. It makes one player sacrifice a lot of knowledge for the team.

Still, I likely wouldn't ever use such a node.

[snrub_guy]

I like the randomness of them. If I could see what they were, then the joy of the moment of capture would be lessened, as well as not forcing me to try out new ships. I like trying to adapt to what I'm given. Oh and if the knowledge cost to see what they unlocked was >7000 then you would be sacrificing the full upgrade line for the unlocked ship, just to see in advance what it was! You would probably end up needing to pick them all up anyway, for the ship caps.

[HitmanN]

Oh and if the knowledge cost to see what they unlocked was >7000 then you would be sacrificing the full upgrade line for the unlocked ship, just to see in advance what it was! You would probably end up needing to pick them all up anyway, for the ship caps.

Correct. You can't expect too much extra convenience without having to pay something for it. You're making your game harder (less knowledge and ships) by making it easier (skipping ARS's you don't need), which somewhat balances out, IMO.

If you're willing to pay the price, then you probably do indeed need or want it, but if not, then the randomness probably wasn't that big a thing to begin with.

[Ktoff]

What about a compromise. An extra option 'show ARS unlock'. I mean, you can disable tractor beams, waves and forcefields. This changes the game more than the gamble with the ARS, doesn't it?

I prefer to have it hidden, but then, other like to have the AI type hidden (i don't :-) )

[lanstro]

I think the design reason for having ARS not showing what they have while fabricators do is valid and a good one.

I wouldn't mind it staying how it is.  Another possibility is to let mark 4 scouts reveal this?

[superking]

I think the design reason for having ARS not showing what they have while fabricators do is valid and a good one.

I understand said reasons, but disagree.

EXAMPLE

I have started with grenade launchers, which have excellent shielding but terrible hitpoints.

I notice that one of the AI bonus units is the shieldbooster.

Now, if I combined the shieldbooster with my grenade launchers it would boost the grenade launchers to a level of shielding close to that of spacetanks, making them vastly more effective. I want to pursue a stratergy in which I gain access to shieldboosters as soon as possible.

With ARS unlocks visible, I would think 'Top priority: find and capture that ARS!' I would unlock high teir scouts and seek out the shieldbooster ARS. I find it, lets say 6 systems away. From thereon, my early game stratergy would revolve around getting a force to that planet, cleansing it and capturing the ARS asap.

With ARS unlock invisible as is, I would think 'Man, I sure hope I capture that in my first ARS!', attack the first nearby planet I find with an ARS then facepalm when it unlocks deflector drones.

one of these settings allows a layer of meaningful strategic decision; one of them does not.

I understand that fabricators are already visible is intended to mitigate this to some extent, but being able to unlock all MKs of a ship buildable at your spacedocks has a much larger impact on strategic decisions than being able to fabricate one MK of a ship. Leaving such a large element of the game to chance is frustrating. Personally I would preffer fabricators to be random and ARS visible 

[lanstro]

I take your point.  I do still think there is value in some randomness in these things to force the player to 'play the hand that he is dealt'.

Maybe the compromise then is to have an option to scramble the show/unshow.  So in the game about 1/2 the fabricators, golems, ARSes etc will show you what they are or what they give, and the other half are surprises.  Could be interesting.