Chokepoint Balance

[keith.lamothe]

PS.
And per planet turret caps were railroaded again. Sad panda

Another AI plot to compromise human defenses, foiled by forum displeasure.

What if you made it an option in map generation, and gave people a chance to try it out?

I don't mind doing the option thing where I think there'll be enough benefit, but adding them is definitely not free in dev-time (mainly in terms of continuing to support yet another divergent playstyle; fine if it's worth it but not to be done lightly).

[Hearteater]

Just a heads up, I'm currently experimenting with a slightly abusive use of Mini-forts that centers around the fact that they only have a per-system cap:

Basically I'm completely clearing AI systems in my back system but leaving the command station.  Then I drop two Mini-Forts on top of the AI Command Station.  These murder most reinforcements pretty well.  They've got issues vs. Bombers though, especially for Mark IV reinforcements.  But it saves me 15 AIP per system I can do this to, and I never need to worry about any build-up.  Not to mention they eat reinforcement picks.  If I could drop turrets in there too, especially with good Polycrystal multipliers, that would be game.  Basically I'm reducing the AIP cost per system by 75% (kill just the gate) and reducing the effectiveness of reinforcements.  Doing this on 9/9 if it matters.

So anyways, that's something to keep in mind.

[eRe4s3r]

Don't miniforts require supply? If not then they really should.

[keith.lamothe]

Just a heads up, I'm currently experimenting with a slightly abusive use of Mini-forts that centers around the fact that they only have a per-system cap:

Basically I'm completely clearing AI systems in my back system but leaving the command station.  Then I drop two Mini-Forts on top of the AI Command Station.  These murder most reinforcements pretty well.  They've got issues vs. Bombers though, especially for Mark IV reinforcements.  But it saves me 15 AIP per system I can do this to, and I never need to worry about any build-up.  Not to mention they eat reinforcement picks.  If I could drop turrets in there too, especially with good Polycrystal multipliers, that would be game.  Basically I'm reducing the AIP cost per system by 75% (kill just the gate) and reducing the effectiveness of reinforcements.  Doing this on 9/9 if it matters.

So anyways, that's something to keep in mind.

Yes, that's good info.  It's one of the kinds of exploits I've quietly thought about but waited for someone to mention.  Though I guess it's just an expansion on the "neuter the galaxy" strategy that is not at all new on high difficulties.

One thing to bear in mind, though: you're not getting the full benefit of actually taking the system.  Not even close.  No K, no m+c, no e, no capturables.

Defensive depth, yes, and population control.  And maybe that's all you need.

[keith.lamothe]

Don't miniforts require supply? If not then they really should.

Checking the code, they do.

I suspect Hearteater is just getting a massively-discounted defensive buffer along his border, which really dilutes AI offensives against him.

[chemical_art]

Yeah also keep in mind you still are paying for the energy costs.

[LordSloth]

Yes, miniforts require supply. I only occasionally use that strategy on 7/7 on X-maps. In particular I sometimes cannot colonize one of the central systems of (one of the offshoots of) an X map with a CSG, and I need to prevent the buildup in order for my fleets to be able to get anything done in the other wings, since this is early on, patrols will be drawn to the system, gravity guardians will ruin my day... I set up miniforts, snipers, spiders, riot starships, missile turrets, and occasionally a single regular fortress. This is more of a maintenance free deathtrap for a patrol that has already been crippled, however. Since I leave the AI up, I don't end up bottlenecking the patrol somewhere I need to go, a serious concern on X-maps.

What I have been doing frequently is I've often been colonizing the system NEXT to an ARS I absolutely want to hack (dealing with spireling and spire hammer, some of the choices I'd usually enjoy are absolutely worthless), and setting up a similar deathtrap, but this isn't nearly as abusive, as I need to invest significantly into turrets. Fire Control might have a significant effect on the viability of extreme knowledge and ship design hacking however.

[Diazo]

Just a heads up, I'm currently experimenting with a slightly abusive use of Mini-forts that centers around the fact that they only have a per-system cap:

Basically I'm completely clearing AI systems in my back system but leaving the command station.  Then I drop two Mini-Forts on top of the AI Command Station.  These murder most reinforcements pretty well.  They've got issues vs. Bombers though, especially for Mark IV reinforcements.  But it saves me 15 AIP per system I can do this to, and I never need to worry about any build-up.  Not to mention they eat reinforcement picks.  If I could drop turrets in there too, especially with good Polycrystal multipliers, that would be game.  Basically I'm reducing the AIP cost per system by 75% (kill just the gate) and reducing the effectiveness of reinforcements.  Doing this on 9/9 if it matters.

So anyways, that's something to keep in mind.

Interesting. I assume the systems are totally isolated?

I've tried this a couple times but I've never been able to keep the forts up by themselves without other turret assistance.  Mind you, the systems have still had connections to other AI worlds so I think ships free on threat came along and helped kill the forts.

If the system is isolated that probably makes for an easier time doing this.

D.

[Hearteater]

I'm using this on internal systems, so I can effectively ignore them without taking any AIP hit other than the Warp Gate.  I don't have the save here, but I threw up this diagram.  All the red systems are still AI systems.  Purple are mine.  All the AI systems behind the Choke are Mini-Forted and I can ignore until my AIP gets so high the reinforcements can crack them.  Otherwise this plays out like those are effectively my systems.  Oh, and 2 of those red systems have SF still, so I get to munch down some SF ships too.  Once I push my Choke out south one more system I'll have cut the map in half, and the SF swarm should be roughly half size on each side.

Anyways, this is saving me 90 AIP.  Sure I don't get K or resources for them.  But I don't need the resources at all, nor honestly do I need the K.  I've got a ton of planets I need to capture to get to the homeworlds, so I'll get my K there.  One homeworld is 17 hops away!  I'm going to be doing a lot of this along my attack route.  Also, I don't care about energy, I'm currently over 500k and I'm running at full caps on almost every unit type.

[eRe4s3r]

Aren't you energy starved with so few planets? /me sucks at energy planning

Ah I see you are not.. well apparently I really do suck with energy management. 6 Planets could never sustain my fleets, although they are always heavy on space-ships... and my chokepoint is heavy on snipers...

[Hearteater]

ZPG on my homeworld.  I'm running zero MC too.  So economy is humming .

[keith.lamothe]

Those miniforts are glancing nervously at the nerfhammer.

(not that I want to employ it in this case, we'll see how things go and there may be a more... inventive solution to Hearteater's temerity in this case)

[eRe4s3r]

Well I admit it's a very cool tactic to keep the waves smaller. But I would capture all planets behind the choke simply to make it look nice (100% my color ,p).

But seriously, what's your mine and crystal income? 6 Planets... do you have harvester upgrade or eco stations?

Imo heavy defenses of any kind on enemy world should trigger response attacks that warp in straight to the command center. While it is a nice tactic, I think the game should enforce higher planet ownership than 6... ;p

Ah.. maybe

Make ZPG produce energy based on how many planets the player holds

And cross that over with crystal somehow ^^ Maybe only have ZPG produce energy based on how many crystal mines you have. Make crystal very rare, and add some more things that crystal can do.

I actually think Crystal could become a much fancier resource, like resources in CIV 5, the more you hold, the better some things work. Well.. just mentioning because I saw the crystal topic...

[Hearteater]

Harvesters are both Mark III.  I dropped a full cap of all my turrets, two mini forts, a full cap of Mark I Hardened Shields plus a few Mark I shields, maybe 15 Grav, 30 Tractor, and 10ish Tachyon turrets all at once on my Choke.  I think I had that all complete in 3ish minutes.  I was floored during it, but it worked.  I had a wave of 600 Space Tanks come in, and they just evaporated.  Oh, and I stole 200 of them thanks to my Mark V Nanoswarm .  Just wait until I get full caps of Attritioners.

Keith, if you made it so Mini-forts couldn't be built on AI systems, that would solve the issue.  If you even consider it one  .  But honestly a few Bombers spawning on a Mark III/IV world will take them down unless you support with a few turrets.  Or just give it +AI difficulty Bombers spawning during reinforcements at the AI CS if there is a Mini-fort in the system.

[keith.lamothe]

Or just give it +AI difficulty Bombers spawning during reinforcements at the AI CS if there is a Mini-fort in the system.

Yea, I think that's more along the right track: if the AI notices you camping its command stations, just have it have a relatively high % chance (not 100 to avoid it being too predictable/manipulable) of dropping some defense-cracker units in each reinforcement there.