Chivalric attitude towards Ion Cannons etc.

[Tridus]

It completely avoids the risk of losing the leader and the worry of having to protect it, however, basically turning it into free AIP reduction for the rest of the game...

Agreed. This does sound like a bug. It really seems like the intention is that they're either AI controlled (and harm you), or they're human controlled (and help you). A setup where the AI ignores them but they help you doesn't seem intended.

At least with any AI other than the Chivalric one, which ignores civilians anyway.

[The Hunter]

Though i haven"t played with Civ leaders yet, i do agree that it sounds like something unintended. What about making AI attack neutral civs? Sounds like logical solution to me like dealing with hostages.

[Chthon]

It was probably changed to this to prevent the AI from immediately nuking the CLs the second it loses it's command station.  How about the AI will leave them alone until the moment the CLs give their -3 AIP bonus.  Then the AI knows they are working against them and will target them.

[Tridus]

It should be simpler then that. It shows up as an AI unit until you take the system and then it becomes your unit. It should be a simple matter of if the AI owns the SCL, it does the +1. If you own it, it does the -3. It shouldn't matter if the AI controls the system or not.

[LaughingThesaurus]

The thing is, I'm absolutely certain that Keith actually knows about it. It's a bug that's been known about for a very long time, probably would have been fixed in one of the many, many updates there have been. It's something that makes sense in-universe, not so much in terms of balance, but do remember. You are actually spending AIP without any gain other than extremely slow eventual AIP reduction. Sure, you could leave your game on all night or something, and really really imbalance the game, but what's the point in not playing the game to play it? I don't think it's as imbalancing as it sounds.

[TIE Viper]

Sure, you could leave your game on all night or something, and really really imbalance the game, but what's the point in not playing the game to play it? I don't think it's as imbalancing as it sounds.

You don't need to leave your game on all night or anything.  With all ten freed you get -30 AIP per hour...that lets you kill 1.5 AI systems per hour without any net AIP increase assuming you aren't already on the AIP floor.  And I don't think it's imbalancing either.  If you wanted to completely counteract the Civ Leaders you could set AIP increase to +30 per 60 mins.  Then freeing them would put you to a net AIP gain of zero.

Playing with the Civ leaders on really helps out when you are playing fallen spire or another type of high AIP game.

I've attached my current game which is somewhat typical of a Fallen Spire/Civ Leader setup I do in case anyone is curious.  I haven't gone through much of Fallen Spire yet but it's my next item on the to do list after finishing the last nebula.

[LaughingThesaurus]

It still seems like a real ordeal to actually get all of them anyway... and even then you have to wait an hour to capture another planet and a half.

[TIE Viper]

Usually I neuter my corner of the galaxy/explore so I can strategeryize what I'm gonna do next.  Setting myself up so I can pop most or all of the Civ Leader planets relatively early is always a top priority when I play games like that.  Afterward I fill the counting down AIP time with nebulae, any expansion I feel is absolutely necessary, Fallen Spire recoveries, etc.

[LordSloth]

The thing about popping but not flipping Spire Civilians:

I find it an interesting choice even if you flip only half of them. At five:

• It costs you 100 AIP to get started.
• It reduces AIP by 3/hour, for a net difference of 4 AIP.
• It pays for itself in seven or five hours, and then is just gravy.
• If you're striking out further than your supply, then you're getting this 100 AIP with zero knowledge, power, or resources. You're effectively giving up 15,000 knowledge, and 750,000 power in the short term, not factoring in metal and crystal and defense costs.
• Dire Guardian Lairs
• Dire Guardian Lairs
• Oh god, Dire Guardians covered by a Fortress, dual Plasma Guard Posts, and a Munitions boosting subcommander.

In my current game, I just barely managed to compensate from the added difficulties (and some of my poor planning) on 7/7, because Stealth Master and cascading power failure. Also, I had the freaking Devourer Golem and Dark Spire Vengeance Generators on.

The lack of proper planning and poor strategic positioning made Spire Recoveries no go, the power situation made spirecraft no go until I planned properly, the golems still hogged power I couldn't afford. I left champions off as well.

In conclusion; better players would screw up less; Spire Civilians make screwing up more interesting, but with light at the end of the tunnel. I'm happy with the current implementation/oversight.

TIE VIPER: With all ten freed, you get an extra starting two hundred AIP. Those raids can but won't necessarily be more difficult without the free/immortal champion. I'd argue the balance point here is the Champion (and nemesis response, I suppose).

I am interested in the experience of no champion, contemporary guard posts, low AIP games with Spire Civilian Leaders. There are plenty of Data Centers out there if you're not busy setting everything on alert, and are riding the floor. But how viable is riding the floor with the upward pressure from Spire Civilian Leaders keeping you from taking your time to build everything?

... I need to play a low AIP game under the new version. Also, I need to stop messing up my list tag.

[keith.lamothe]

Dire Guardians covered by a Fortress, dual Plasma Guard Posts, and a Munitions boosting subcommander.

Bwahahaha!

[LaughingThesaurus]

Keith, is it possible to just have an AI type with really vicious RNG? Where like, all of the nasty stuff is packed together, and there are also like, superfortresses guarding every ARS and like, other stuff. It only unlocks the meanest bonus ships, that sort of thing.

[keith.lamothe]

Keith, is it possible to just have an AI type with really vicious RNG? Where like, all of the nasty stuff is packed together, and there are also like, superfortresses guarding every ARS and like, other stuff. It only unlocks the meanest bonus ships, that sort of thing.

That's not so much making a vicious RNG as ignoring the RNG and deliberately placing stuff in nasty places rather than letting it randomly pick.  Yes, such a thing is possible

[LordSloth]

That actually sounds a bit too complicated, LT.
How about an AI that simply puts a SubCommander ... everywhere that's remotely of interest.

Golem? Have a subcommander. Dark Spire? Have a subcommander. DG Lair?  Raid Engine? Interplanetary Munitions Booster? Well, you get the idea.

But for the love of god, please exclude AI Eyes or make them spawn at an exceptionally low rate. I do not want to be the one explaining the assault on a Translocator Command packed with Anti Starship Arachnids and a Nuclear Eye.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Well, that kind of AI could very possibly be really horrible and unfun but man that could be interesting. Hmm...

Shortsighted: This AI packs a lot of its high power, high value defenses close together, and defends any sort of beneficial capturables it has viciously... However, this AI does not get any AI Eyes, and gets few guard posts and defenses anywhere else.
High Command: This AI has a lot of subcommanders watching over anything of even slight human interest. Subcommanders appear on any planet which has... (potentially, core shield generators, advanced production, ARS, data centers, core worlds, spire archive, superterminals, anything else you can think of)

Anyway, don't let me derail too much, I like to brainstorm these ideas. I don't usually mantis it unless other people are like "ooh, sounds interesting" directly to me.

[TIE Viper]

• Dire Guardian Lairs
• Dire Guardian Lairs
• Oh god, Dire Guardians covered by a Fortress, dual Plasma Guard Posts, and a Munitions boosting subcommander.

I'm trying to finish up this game so I can start one post 7.0.  Therefore I haven't yet tried the challenge to free the Civs with the added hazard of the DGs.  Wondering what the fleet strength threshold to make confronting them feasible would be for that... 

The way I usually go about freeing them is neutering planets up to the deepstrike point in general towards anything I'm actually gonna take.  Then if there isn't anything in reach (which is quite unlikely in my experience) I take a planet for a staging point to extend my range without causing a deepstrike.  Rinse and repeat.  The nice thing about popping a system for the Civ Leaders is even if you dont take it, you still get the extended range protection from deepstriking.  In my current game I tried a slightly new tactic.  I waited until I cleared paths to pretty much all of the Civ Leaders before I popped the systems to free them.  It kept the AIP floor and AIP in general quite low till I actually started freeing them.  So far I don't think I've gone over 250 AIP.  All I have left is any prep I want to do for the HW assaults and finish taking Fallen Spire however far I want to take it.

Shortsighted: This AI packs a lot of its high power, high value defenses close together, and defends any sort of beneficial capturables it has viciously... However, this AI does not get any AI Eyes, and gets few guard posts and defenses anywhere else.
High Command: This AI has a lot of subcommanders watching over anything of even slight human interest. Subcommanders appear on any planet which has... (potentially, core shield generators, advanced production, ARS, data centers, core worlds, spire archive, superterminals, anything else you can think of)

I like these AI ideas a lot, bring on the pain!   >D