Author Topic: The Future of the Enclave Starship  (Read 4137 times)

Offline Cinth

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,527
  • Resident Zombie
Re: The Future of the Enclave Starship
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2014, 02:06:45 pm »
@Hearteater

What real challenges have you thrown your Enclaves against?  Wave defense (even low AIP 10/10) and neutering planets are not even close to what I would consider hard to clear.


Edit: Just to prove the point, 1/1 (yes, sandbox) Vanguard/ SS Fanatic, 112 Enclaves could not one shot an AI HW.  They managed to kill 3 core guard posts. 112 Enclaves are 16x Mk 1-3 and the merc 4s.  That's well over 4000 drones.  What did the AI do? Primarily focus down the enclaves with Core, Zenith, Spire and Warbird Starships. 1/1 only gave the AI a handful of these ships.

Combat SS in general counter Enclaves pretty hard.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 02:47:27 pm by Cinth »
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: The Future of the Enclave Starship
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2014, 02:45:04 pm »
@Toranth
Believe me, I understand the math on this extremely well, as you should know since you've basically proved my math correct. You said only 4 waves could be present at a time and that is incorrect. Using an assumption that "well, one wave isn't going to be in range anyway" to explain that away isn't the way to go about a discussion. Someone reading your post might have reasoned out that same assumption themselves, but since you didn't say anything they would then be reducing the wave size from 4 to 3 and suddenly they think the DPS is 25% lower. I presented best case numbers in a variety of situations so each reader can make such assumptions without tripping over my own.

As for the armor piercing DPS, it works like this: You increase DPS to account for the optimal situation where no AP is wasted. That is the maximum DPS before armor reduction that attack can deal against an optimally armored target. When you compare two attacks, you can look at the AP DPS to see how they compare against armored targets. When considering DPS against a specific target, you calculate the -DPS for the armor value against each attacker. This gives you four very clean DPS values to compare. You can optionally split the +DPS from AP into a separate number and reduce the -DPS from armor depending on what angle you are analyzing the date from.

Regarding the test, did you seriously expect two lone starships to stop a wave? I don't believe I said they could. I'm pretty sure I mentioned using 48 Spider Turrets as well.

@Cinth
I consider clearing a planet with NO economic impact a pretty useful ability for two starships. Actually, I can't think of anything else that can do that at the moment that comes remotely close to equivalent. Let me tell you what Enclaves have done for me at 10/10: I haven't unlocked Harvester III because I'm no longer taking losses nearly as heavily as normal. I haven't built Raid Starships yet because I don't need to raid Ion Cannons anymore. Once I start picking off distant targets I will, but early game they've replaced Raids. I'm not making Heavy Bomber Starships either, and Plasma Starships are only being used on defense to counter enemy Starships in a more rapidly. Largely because I'm also running less Force Fields (because I haven't unlocked any extra yet). It is a cascade of effects across play.

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: The Future of the Enclave Starship
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2014, 02:57:54 pm »

I consider clearing a planet with NO economic impact a pretty useful ability for two starships. Actually, I can't think of anything else that can do that at the moment that comes remotely close to equivalent. Let me tell you what Enclaves have done for me at 10/10: I haven't unlocked Harvester III because I'm no longer taking losses nearly as heavily as normal. I haven't built Raid Starships yet because I don't need to raid Ion Cannons anymore. Once I start picking off distant targets I will, but early game they've replaced Raids. I'm not making Heavy Bomber Starships either, and Plasma Starships are only being used on defense to counter enemy Starships in a more rapidly. Largely because I'm also running less Force Fields (because I haven't unlocked any extra yet). It is a cascade of effects across play.

If the drones are able to defeat a whole planet with nothing else protecting the enclaves, there wasn't much on the planet to begin with. Any drone / long range ship can do this given time, it is just enclaves are not so easily tripped up because of immunities.

Raid starships and enclaves are for very different roles. Enclaves stir up the AI on their own, allowing your blob to hammer them without direct orders from you over time. Raids allow you to try to remove structures without swarming the whole nest. Completely different tactics.  Any fleet of starships will not have to worry about ion cannons, not just enclaves. If anything, it proves we need more long range starships, not that enclaves are OP.

If you can show me a planet where you took heavy casualties normally but your enclave took it with no losses I'll look into it, but until then I'm inclined to think there was some tactical errors or trade offs made.
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline Cinth

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,527
  • Resident Zombie
Re: The Future of the Enclave Starship
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2014, 03:02:53 pm »
I clear every planet, every game.  There isn't anything challenging about it.  Over time I have used many different tools. Raids and Enclaves are good, Champs do it better (Neinzul even better).  OMD and Starships in numbers are big threats.

Your 10/10 10 AIP play is largely irrelevant since you haven't engaged anything remotely close to giving you a game over scenario.

Your combined defense protect your whipping boy and what offense you have done is localized around the GP the drones attack (and further micro of the drones can prevent waking other units). 

What the Enclaves have done is open up your early game to give you more options to carry on with later.  Enclaves will not win the game for you.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: The Future of the Enclave Starship
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2014, 03:28:25 pm »
Believe me, I understand the math on this extremely well, as you should know since you've basically proved my math correct. You said only 4 waves could be present at a time and that is incorrect. Using an assumption that "well, one wave isn't going to be in range anyway" to explain that away isn't the way to go about a discussion. Someone reading your post might have reasoned out that same assumption themselves, but since you didn't say anything they would then be reducing the wave size from 4 to 3 and suddenly they think the DPS is 25% lower. I presented best case numbers in a variety of situations so each reader can make such assumptions without tripping over my own.
When talking about units in general, it isn't useful to fully spell out and explain every corner case.  That's why I don't include damage multipliers - it makes comparisons too complicated.  Yes, technically, you could compute the damage times multiplier times the likelihood of encountering that hull type.  But that's a theoretical number that will never actually match the in-game reality.  So it shouldn't be used.


As for the armor piercing DPS, it works like this: You increase DPS to account for the optimal situation where no AP is wasted. That is the maximum DPS before armor reduction that attack can deal against an optimally armored target. When you compare two attacks, you can look at the AP DPS to see how they compare against armored targets. When considering DPS against a specific target, you calculate the -DPS for the armor value against each attacker. This gives you four very clean DPS values to compare. You can optionally split the +DPS from AP into a separate number and reduce the -DPS from armor depending on what angle you are analyzing the date from.
If armor were a universal, with only the relevant value changing, I think this might be a more useful approach.  But since somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of all units have zero armor, I don't think this is a concept useful for general case discussions.
The big problem is by attempting what you are here is that you are giving numbers that overestimate the usefulness.  I very much prefer to use the general case, assuming the target has no armor, rather than cobble together a range of values that would still require the reader


Regarding the test, did you seriously expect two lone starships to stop a wave? I don't believe I said they could. I'm pretty sure I mentioned using 48 Spider Turrets as well.
In your own defense sample, did you compare the results of the same attack with and without Enclaves?  That's what I did, and I showed that it was the turrets, not the Enclaves, that did the majority of the damage.

You described clearing a Mk II planet on 10/10 with 120 ships plus Guardposts plus Guardians using just a pair of Enclaves.  Why would I not expect those same enclaves to be able to kill a mere 75 or so fleetships?



What the Enclaves have done is open up your early game to give you more options to carry on with later.  Enclaves will not win the game for you.
I think overall, this is what Cinth and I are saying.  Enclaves are useful.  They are not OP units that produce an instant win, or reduce the game to trivial difficulty.  The AI has direct counters for them (OMD, Arachnid GP, Disassembler, Eyes) that are not minor.
I've got a game going on right now with this:  A Neinzul unit and the MSDs.  Far more powerful, and more numerous, than mere Enclaves.

Really, if we're talking OP units, the SSBs, Blade Spawners, Protector Starships, TDLs, LTFs, Corvettes, Fireflies, Sentinel Frigates, Shield Bearers, and Spire Starships are all much more overpowered.  Just off the top of my head.

Offline Cinth

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,527
  • Resident Zombie
Re: The Future of the Enclave Starship
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2014, 03:46:47 pm »
Regarding the test, did you seriously expect two lone starships to stop a wave? I don't believe I said they could. I'm pretty sure I mentioned using 48 Spider Turrets as well.
In your own defense sample, did you compare the results of the same attack with and without Enclaves?  That's what I did, and I showed that it was the turrets, not the Enclaves, that did the majority of the damage.

You described clearing a Mk II planet on 10/10 with 120 ships plus Guardposts plus Guardians using just a pair of Enclaves.  Why would I not expect those same enclaves to be able to kill a mere 75 or so fleetships?
I don't know of any player here that doesn't use a combined defense to handle AI attacks.  In any example, the enclaves were just one part of the whole.  It's practically impossible to isolate the value on an individual unit in this type of defense.

Outside of a few specific planets, when does attacking an AI planet ever involve taking on every ship on it?  In the majority of cases, you only have to deal with the ships at a gp. In this sense, AI waves are more dangerous, but you have a combined defense to handle it.

Quote
What the Enclaves have done is open up your early game to give you more options to carry on with later.  Enclaves will not win the game for you.
I think overall, this is what Cinth and I are saying.  Enclaves are useful.  They are not OP units that produce an instant win, or reduce the game to trivial difficulty.  The AI has direct counters for them (OMD, Arachnid GP, Disassembler, Eyes) that are not minor.
I've got a game going on right now with this:  A Neinzul unit and the MSDs.  Far more powerful, and more numerous, than mere Enclaves.
Economy Cannon FTW!  :D

Quote
Really, if we're talking OP units, the SSBs, Blade Spawners, Protector Starships, TDLs, LTFs, Corvettes, Fireflies, Sentinel Frigates, Shield Bearers, and Spire Starships are all much more overpowered.  Just off the top of my head.
Long range ships are more dangerous, but they all have counters or ways to take them down with minimal losses.  I'd also say the AI is way more dangerous with these than the player is.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: The Future of the Enclave Starship
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2014, 04:41:13 pm »
Really, if we're talking OP units, the SSBs, Blade Spawners, Protector Starships, TDLs, LTFs, Corvettes, Fireflies, Sentinel Frigates, Shield Bearers, and Spire Starships are all much more overpowered.  Just off the top of my head.
Long range ships are more dangerous, but they all have counters or ways to take them down with minimal losses.  I'd also say the AI is way more dangerous with these than the player is.
The AI is more dangerous with everything, because it just gets MORE of them.  I still have minor nightmares when the AI gets TDLs, because of the bad old days of 5000 TDL Special Forces mobs.

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: The Future of the Enclave Starship
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2014, 04:52:19 pm »
I'm sad the AI doesn't get LTFs. I dislike the inconsistency.

Offline Cinth

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,527
  • Resident Zombie
Re: The Future of the Enclave Starship
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2014, 05:03:38 pm »
Really, if we're talking OP units, the SSBs, Blade Spawners, Protector Starships, TDLs, LTFs, Corvettes, Fireflies, Sentinel Frigates, Shield Bearers, and Spire Starships are all much more overpowered.  Just off the top of my head.
Long range ships are more dangerous, but they all have counters or ways to take them down with minimal losses.  I'd also say the AI is way more dangerous with these than the player is.
The AI is more dangerous with everything, because it just gets MORE of them.  I still have minor nightmares when the AI gets TDLs, because of the bad old days of 5000 TDL Special Forces mobs.
Could just be me but I've noticed that the AI just uses them better.  I usually have more issues against railclusters and reprocessors than I do any of the above ships.  Speaking of the above ships, all of them all in just the same manner as enclaves.  My line up usually includes all but two of those.  They fleet wipe even used in combination, lol.

I'm sad the AI doesn't get LTFs. I dislike the inconsistency.
How the hell would you deal with a few hundred mixed mark LTFs?  And don't say warheads.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Peter Ebbesen

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: The Future of the Enclave Starship
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2014, 05:06:12 pm »
I'm sad the AI doesn't get LTFs. I dislike the inconsistency.
Enable hybrids and hope to get lucky.
Ride the Lightning - a newbie Fallen Spire AAR - the AAR of my second serious AI War game. Now completed.