Champion Dreadnought and Super-Dreadnought?

[ALGALIAREPT666]

Dunno if this has been asked before, but is it just me, or are you tired of the spire being the only ones with Dreadnoughts and Super-Dreadnoughts?  Anybody want to see higher level champions than the battleship?

[Radiant Phoenix]

First, Super Dreadnoughts are NPC-only.

Second, Champions are Spire tech. Spire would still be the only ones with them.

Third, the implication I've seen is that the Shadow came to the Milky Way because they were running from the Imperial Spire. Possibly because the Imperial Spire have Dreadnoughts and/or Super Dreadnoughts and the Shadow don't.

That said, I think it would be appropriate to allow Shadow Dreadnoughts when you complete the Galactic Capitol.

[ALGALIAREPT666]

yeah your right...but i think (and i have no idea how the balance works but...) that every one should have a unique thing that makes them worth getting (not just higher stats and more modules).  Like, for example, the neinzul has cloaking on their shadow ships...so maybe an ability to very shortly cloak all allied ships on the planet (not supercloak) so they could get in close and do some major damage (shout out to the bombers!).  whadya think?

[Radiant Phoenix]

Here's what I think should be done:

Hull	New speed	Old speed
Neinzul	300	157
Human	200	150
Zenith	150	143
Spire	100	136

(note that all speeds in nebulas are halved)

Drones should be of comparable speed (e.g., Slicer drone 300, Interceptor drone 200, bomber drone 150) to keep up with the shadow ship, or faster (e.g., slicer drone 1000, Interceptor drone 700, Bomber 400) to maybe actually fight things the shadow ship wasn't already fighting.

For comparison, hostile nebula ships currently generally vary in speed from about 140 to about 190 (actually 145 to 185 AFAICT, and it's based on faction not ship class)

Hull	Role in Nebulas	Role in Galaxy
Neinzul	Fix mistakes (catch breakaways)	Disruption[1]
Human	Fight waves in neutral territory	Clear out ship buildup
Zenith	The Mario, but needs to predict where to go	Kill scary things
Spire	A siege engine that hunts bases	Fly into a system and smash

Obviously, there would need to be module support for this.

---
[1]: Specifically, cause trouble that will stick around and disrupt the AI's operations in a system for a while.

Thus, in addition to the speed changes I proposed (200/100/150/300), I think:

• The Human champion should get a damage bonus of x5 vs Light, Medium, and Heavy, which would give it much better numbers in the hunting-ships department (very noticeably better than the other two).
• The Spire champion should get a doubling or so of its damage number, which would make it comparable to the Zenith starship at hunting starbases. Note: This was back when the reload on the Spire champion was 2(4), not 1(3), so this would correspond to a 50% increase in the damage number at this point
  
• The Zenith champion can mostly stay as-is.
• The Neinzul champion should get some ability that actually slows down nebula ships so other champions can catch up. (Engine damage, coupled with removing nebula ship immunity to engine damage?)

[...]

EDIT: Additionally, for these changes, we might want to change some hull types.

For example:

Hull	Type	Reasoning
Human	Heavy	None of the nebula ships get a bonus against it
Spire	Ultra-Heavy	Not vulnerable to starbases, but wants support to keep the light ships away
Zenith	Neutron	It's what the Zenith Starship has, and it completes the symmetry of, "each ship is vulnerable to a different type of nebula ship"
Neinzul	Medium	The nebula ships it worries about are the ones that your starbases least need to worry about

(Just changing the Spire champion's hull type is also an option)

[KDR_11k]

Not sure I like making the champion even faster, it's already crazy fast. The other nebula ships need a slowdown though so you can catch up with them.

[Radiant Phoenix]

Not sure I like making the champion even faster, it's already crazy fast. The other nebula ships need a slowdown though so you can catch up with them.

The Neinzul champion would be kind of like a raid starship, but bigger and modular

The Human champion would be just slightly faster than the fastest normal nebula ships (not the mysterious colony ship; only the Neinzul would be faster than that), and good against all of them.

The Zenith champion would be kind of like a bomber starship, but bigger and faster and modular (as it is now)

The Spire champion would be fast enough to go places, but still slower than some normal ships. Also slower than nebula ships that aren't the Malfunctioning Dyson Gatlings or the Ravenous Shadow or something.

---

Of note, the fact that the spire starship and the spire shadow frigate are comparable is pathetic. The shadow frigate should be better by far.

Likewise with the Human shadow frigate and the Bomber starship. (Although the human shadow frigate at least has bonuses)

[Zeyi]

Of note, the fact that the spire starship and the spire shadow frigate are comparable is pathetic. The shadow frigate should be better by far.

Likewise with the Human shadow frigate and the Bomber starship. (Although the human shadow frigate at least has bonuses)

Why do you think this? The Human Shadow Frigate is a free ship you get from the start of game,  gets better with upgrades, can deploy forcefields, and never dies (doesn't required any buildings costs). These things alone make it better by far.

[Radiant Phoenix]

Why do you think this? The Human Shadow Frigate is a free ship you get from the start of game,  gets better with upgrades, can deploy forcefields, and never dies (doesn't required any buildings costs). These things alone make it better by far.

Because it's supposed to satisfy a whole player's attention, not just a fraction of one player's attention.

Given that it doesn't do anything but fly around fighting stuff (Nebula or AI), it should be able to run around and start tearing up the AI's backyard from the first minute.

[Histidine]

Because it's supposed to satisfy a whole player's attention, not just a fraction of one player's attention.

Then it would be unusable for a normal+champion player.

Given that it doesn't do anything but fly around fighting stuff (Nebula or AI), it should be able to run around and start tearing up the AI's backyard from the first minute.

This was before offensive nemeses or the starship buffs, but that's exactly what I did - send champion running around neutering systems and killing hybrid facilities as soon as I finished picking starting techs and placing buildings. If anything, the champion makes it too easy; you get it at start and if it dies it gets replaced in seconds at no cost.

[Aklyon]

After a point, the only thing that can really stonewall a Champion is giant threatballs that you may or maynot have had build up, and if you bring in something to support the champion you can whittle that down as well.

[Radiant Phoenix]

Because it's supposed to satisfy a whole player's attention, not just a fraction of one player's attention.

Then it would be unusable for a normal+champion player.

Normal + Champion already requires pausing the game.

Giving Normal+Champion too much to do in real time is more acceptable than not giving a Nothing+Champion enough to do.

Given that it doesn't do anything but fly around fighting stuff (Nebula or AI), it should be able to run around and start tearing up the AI's backyard from the first minute.

This was before offensive nemeses or the starship buffs, but that's exactly what I did - send champion running around neutering systems and killing hybrid facilities as soon as I finished picking starting techs and placing buildings. If anything, the champion makes it too easy; you get it at start and if it dies it gets replaced in seconds at no cost.

At the time of the post you quoted, a Bomber Starship Mk2 vs Human Shadow Frigate (with six lasers Mk1 and two shields Mk1) one-on-one fight would probably go to the bomber starship, because it would have significantly more HP and almost as much DPS.

Autokite might conceivably alleviate this problem, but even without it, this should not happen.

EDIT: Fixed my quote tags, I think

[keith.lamothe]

The balance target for the initial champ frigate, as it has been since I originally implemented the feature, is that of a powerful starship.  The balance target for the champ battleship is in the golem range (though in practice I think it exceeds that, but I haven't looked at those numbers lately).

[Lancefighter]

you use champions other than the spire one o.0 how?

[chemical_art]

you use champions other than the spire one o.0 how?

I think the differences with each are fine.

Spires are ultra heavy hitters. They don't do the maximum dps, but their heavy shielding and set means in a 1v1 fight they can take on the heaviest of targets.

Zenith are good all rounders. Able to handle 1v1 and fleetballs well.

Humans are pure fleetballers / specialized craft.

Nenzul craft are used when you want to cloak for the deepstrike, and to isolate targets.

[Aklyon]

WHats special about the spire one? It seemed to just have a ton of shield space and be incompatible with several parts. Looks neato as a cruiser, but I'm not seeing it unless you're using a part I haven't gotten despite ~7 nebulae.