Champion Dreadnought and Super-Dreadnought?

[Cinth]

you use champions other than the spire one o.0 how?

You can't find a use for the Neinzul Champ or the Zenith Champ?

I have uses for all the hull types, maybe you should get creative.

[chemical_art]

WHats special about the spire one? It seemed to just have a ton of shield space and be incompatible with several parts. Looks neato as a cruiser, but I'm not seeing it unless you're using a part I haven't gotten despite ~7 nebulae.

The heavy shields are a key feature of it. It gives the absolute highest raw HP.

The other half is that with its base weapon and implosions, in a 1v1 it can vaporize large targets.

Excellent against annihilating core guardposts while the rest of your fleet draws away some of the fire. Or against any other of the larger targets.

[Radiant Phoenix]

you use champions other than the spire one o.0 how?

The reload time on the Spire champion is 2 seconds longer than the number listed in-game.

Until the recent patch, it was entirely worse than the Zenith champion for anything but tanking.

With the new patch, I still don't trust it to do more than about 25% of the maximum DPS (0.5 seconds of beam) against things that don't stand still, and its heavy modules have their own problems:

• It doesn't have a 100% unlock anti-super-heavy weapon for its heavy slots
• They're different, so you don't have the flexibility of using them on other ships
  
• It doesn't get enough more heavy slots to make it really worth it

Basically, the Zenith champion can do stuff, the the Human champion has a niche, and the Neinzul champion is amazing outside nebulas for its abilities[1], but the Spire champion just doesn't hit hard enough to be worth specializing in.

This is why I think it should hit about 2/3 harder than it does now, and have a hull type that starbases don't get a bonus against.

Also, Photon Lance modules should hit twice as hard as they do now. When I looked at the DPS on the mark-2 photon lance, I was like, "oh, it does 150kdps per mark, that's actually pretty cool!" Then I realized that that was mark-2 stats, so it actually only does 75kdps/mark, and is just lame. (Although, conceivably, against command-grade, it might be worth it if you had infinite unlock points)

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[1]: Cloaking, radar dampening, vampirism, and mounting Botnet Golem guns in its small slots.

[Lancefighter]

You arent comparing spire lances to bonused other things, right? Because that would be a slightly disfavorable comparison.

From what I recall of the numbers, they deal damage comparable to a 4x multiplier to literally everything. The only weapon I would use over them would be plasma siege modules. (which again, are absolutely amazing, and the spire ship is the only one that can fit them. Also, heavy slots are more useful than 3 small slots you trade for)

I've only thought they were slightly op for a while now, I am kinda confused.

[Radiant Phoenix]

You arent comparing spire lances to bonused other things, right? Because that would be a slightly disfavorable comparison.

From what I recall of the numbers, they deal damage comparable to a 4x multiplier to literally everything. The only weapon I would use over them would be plasma siege modules. (which again, are absolutely amazing, and the spire ship is the only one that can fit them. Also, heavy slots are more useful than 3 small slots you trade for)

I've only thought they were slightly op for a while now, I am kinda confused.

The Photon Lance does (on normal speed) a 528k damage beam every 7 seconds per mark level. This is about 75kdps.

A typical ship won't sit still in your beam for the full 2 seconds. I estimate about 1/2 second. That means you do about 25% damage with it. That means your practical DPS is about 19kdps.

In nebulas, you're mostly going to only get the full 75k against starbases. This makes the photon lance about equivalent to a module that does 20kdps with a 4x multiplier against stationary targets that also requires you to stand still. I won't use this. The fact that it's Spire-only just makes it even worse.

The plasma canon is a 10kdps module with a 10x multiplier against ultra-heavy and heavy, and doesn't require you to stand still. I might use this, but only for lack of other options. I don't think it's a good idea to unlock upgrades once you've got the zenith hull, because it doesn't work on non-Spire hulls.

The missile launcher is a 25kdps module with a 5x multiplier against ultra-heavy. I consider using it because starbases are a royal pain, and it works on all of the non-Spire hulls.

The heavy beam module is a 75kdps module that has no multipliers. My understanding is that it does full DPS to everything, and even transfers overkill to other targets in range. I don't use this, but that's because I don't like the Human hull. I think it is probably very good.

The heat ray is a 25kdps module with a 7x multiplier against crowds. I still don't use it, but I think that's a personal preference. The Zenith hull is good.

The rail cluster is a 25kdps module with a 5x multiplier against light. It is usable by the Zenith and Spire hulls. It is something that might be worth using.

If we brought the photon lance module to a 1(3)s reload, it would do 176kdps max, with a "typical" of 44kdps. I would consider using that, even though it's Spire-only. 2(4)s gives 132kdps max and 33kdps typical, which is ever so slightly better than its competition at slugging matches with structures, and thus something I would consider using in specific circumstances, but generally not bother with.

Spire need damage expressions that look too big, both because they have a secret +2s reload time,and because they either need to deal with ships, in which case their numbers are significantly smaller than they look, or they need to positively evaporate their heavily-armored stationary targets.

[Chthon]

You arent comparing spire lances to bonused other things, right? Because that would be a slightly disfavorable comparison.

From what I recall of the numbers, they deal damage comparable to a 4x multiplier to literally everything. The only weapon I would use over them would be plasma siege modules. (which again, are absolutely amazing, and the spire ship is the only one that can fit them. Also, heavy slots are more useful than 3 small slots you trade for)

I've only thought they were slightly op for a while now, I am kinda confused.

I agree with Radiant Pheonix.  Spire shadow ships look great on paper, and might do very well on starbases.  However starbases aren't your biggest concerns most of the time, and none of the lances can be trusted to hit a moving target for a real amount of damage, or possibly hit more than one.  This is due to the fact that you often play with it way zoomed out, the beam is actually very very narrow, and ships are smaller than they appear on the normal zoom levels.

Either the damage needs to come up on the weapon, or it needs to be reworked so it can reliably hit a moving target or change target by changing it's angle by a small degree every tick.  Otherwise it's rather lackluster in effect.  I'd only recommend grabbing it if for some reason you hate fun and want to kill every wormhole guard post manually.

[Lancefighter]

Your arguments are really great sounding on paper. And by on paper, I mean I cant really argue with the numbers. What I can argue with is your reasoning.

Why exactly are you in nebulas? To kill starbases. There are three missions where this is not the case, and I will address each individually.

In nebulas what kills starbases the best?  Plasma siege guns. Without a doubt. Second up is photon lances. Third is missile launchers. I will also explain this, now.

Spire ships have more heavy slots. Heavy slots are the only things that fit things that murder starbases. Needlers dont kill starbases very well, as you may or may not know. You may think heavy slots is a trivial thing, that youd rather have not-heavy slots, and I might address that later.
Plasma cannons, as you stated, deal 100k dps to starbases and heavy units alike. Heavy units are the most annoying of nebula ships, and often the only ones with any useful amount of hp. Dealing with those quickly is nice, because then they cant be annoying you (and it takes forever for friendlies to deal with them).
Spire lances, as per your numbers, are dealing 75k dps to everything. Feel free to quote me all sorts of 'but stuff moves'. Actually, it doesnt. The game's ai is pretty simple - Move into range. Shoot. As long as you arent moving the ship, its impossible to miss. There are plenty of targets that do a lot of sitting around - Primarily, anything in nebulas. Nebula ships in general have really high health pools, and love to sit around and get shot at. Overkill due to total beam damage isnt an issue. Overall, I have found spire lance modules to be EXCEPTIONAL at doing nebula missions.

Back on the subject of youknow, shooting starbases. I mention three missions which do not require shooting starbases.

One is the Mourners scenario. I dont actually see how there is much to discuss here - The ships that are actually a threat to the base are dealt with incredibly easily by the few alternate guns a spirehsip has at its disposal. The rest is dealing with 'fluff' medium/heavy units that just soak damage. Both plasma siege and photon lance are great here, because again - What is their ai? Fly into range of base, and then afk. Overall, not the best mission for photon lances, but not actually the worst.

The Devourer scenario is the worst, by far. It actually presents a moving target (mostly), that moves quicker than you do and has tons of hp. However, photon cannons are still the best here. Photon lances are ok, in that they still are really good if you dont happen to have zenith hull. (I really dont find the human hull worth using, with one notable pointless exception - Champion Only players with nanosubverters.) This is one of the worst missions to fail a critical gear check on, because you basically can do it or you cant. Spire ships with photon lances can do it in a pinch. Human ships usually cant (ires/polarizers notwithstanding)

And the final one, dyson things. Meh. Photon cannons do this really well. I've gotten it first so many times in my last games that I am beginning to wonder what its actual logic is. No matter, its generally easily doable with a mk1 ship *shrug*

You do mention missiles. Missiles are actually pretty good. Missiles would be great if the zenith ship had more slots, and wasnt ugly.

And finally - Your general talk seems to lead me in the direction that you havent actually tried to use a spire ship optimally. Have you tried taking a spire cruiser with plasma guns into a nebula? It ends pretty quick. A spire lance fit is slightly slower, but still gets the job done faster than a comparable zenith fits. Heavens forbid trying to use a neinzul ship for it..
How do you normally run mid-lategame missions? Do you just sit around waiting for them to complete themselves?

(the heavy beam is actually really good, but has the minor problem of being human only. Railcluster is hilariously good, but I can never seem to unlock it, and it still would have to replace a plasma gun or photon lance.)

Oh yeah, and final point - edit: redacted.

[Zeyurn]

Neinzul Champ at Highest Tier Hull with Bomber Bay V and Insanity Inducer V can solo anything but Core Worlds.  Swap the insanity inducers for doom accelerators and the bomber bays for missiles or something (until bays target what the champ targets they're not the greatest for this) and you can solo a AI Homeworld's core guard posts if you are willing to respawn a lot!

Most people don't like the bays but they draw fire and especially they draw fire from Bombards and other long range things that can massacre a Champion if you get close to them.

They have vampirism and cloaking and insanity inducers make huge zombie hoards (and you can repair them if you want too).  If you're Mk 5 hull you have gravity immunity too!  Radar dampening also!

If you get low on health you just pause yourself and run to the sidelines and heal (or don't pause if you're faster, the bomber bays will produce enough fodder).

With this setup you can even blast through forcefields, and you can crush nebulas with the Mk 4 hull like this too (obviously use lasers instead of insanity inducers, or doom accelerators) and do them out in the middle of nowhere where it'd be hard to get other hulls in.  If you can get there easily I would not recommend this Champ type though for nebulas.  It can heal the bases though which is kind of nifty if not usually useful.

[Radiant Phoenix]

In nebulas what kills starbases the best?  Plasma siege guns. Without a doubt. Second up is photon lances. Third is missile launchers. I will also explain this, now.

Nope. Missile Launchers do 125kdps to to starbases (and have slightly longer range). The Spire ships only have one more heavy slot than the Zenith, so the zenith's heavy slots do (100 - 25*X)kdps less damage per mark, and it has 4 more light slots for armor polarizers or IREs, so it does about 100kdps/mark more damage from that. Thus, for every extra heavy slot that you can devote to guns, the Zenith starship does 25kdps/mark more damage. So, the Spire champion is now... slightly better at that, because the main gun does 120kdps/hull more DPS.

And finally - Your general talk seems to lead me in the direction that you havent actually tried to use a spire ship optimally. Have you tried taking a spire cruiser with plasma guns into a nebula? It ends pretty quick. A spire lance fit is slightly slower, but still gets the job done faster than a comparable zenith fits. Heavens forbid trying to use a neinzul ship for it..
How do you normally run mid-lategame missions? Do you just sit around waiting for them to complete themselves?

I haven't gotten to lategame since the updates. In the early game, until recently, I didn't like getting near starbases because they kind of murder shadow frigates, and even mess up shadow destroyers something nasty.

I would definitely favor the plasma cannon over the photon lance for Nebulas.

While the Neinzul champion generally isn't good in nebulas, it's spectacular in the main game.

Basically, I think that the biggest problem right now is that the Spire champion requires more specialization than the other champions

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Actually, I think the bomber module has an argument for being the best against bases, because it does up to about either 170kdps or 210kdps against heavy and ultra-heavy (depending on whether the drones come out loaded or unloaded). Unfortunately, the bases have enough shots that they're just going to evaporate your drones and keep pounding on you.

[Lancefighter]

the difference in slots (particularly heavy slots) skews heavily in the spireship's favor as hulls get bigger. I dont recall offhand what the progression is like, but I'm pretty sure even at the destroyer level spire has more than 1 more heavy slot.

[Radiant Phoenix]

the difference in slots (particularly heavy slots) skews heavily in the spireship's favor as hulls get bigger. I dont recall offhand what the progression is like, but I'm pretty sure even at the destroyer level spire has more than 1 more heavy slot.

Nope.

The Zenith Shadow Battleship has 8 heavy slots, and the Spire Shadow Battleship has 9.

The Spire Shadow Battleship also can't mount drone bays or Paralyzers.

[Lancefighter]

hm thats odd. I couldve sworn the difference was more in the favor of the spireship.

Fun story - If you enable cheats, you can finish the entire AS plot in like a half hour.

(artillery golems are pretty strong)