Author Topic: Can we have more intelligent enclaves?  (Read 7329 times)

Offline Spikey00

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Can we have more intelligent enclaves?
« on: December 09, 2010, 03:04:15 pm »
Preface
[Friendly] enclaves are still suiciding because... the enclave AI is way too basic.


...no, you cannot solo an IV planet with 4.7k AI ships.  That's not going to happen; it would have been instantly destroyed were it not for the AI being busy destroying its underlings.

The, 'if my health is below 75% I should go retreat' logic is insufficient, as the enclave shouldn't even be on this planet at all, or it should disappear instantly as soon as it dumps its ships on the planet.  Every single enclave I've seen wants to keep travelling through AI territory (the next planet is an AI homeworld) and they only retreat when their health is under 75% (that's why this one was even trying to cross over to the AI homeworld).

Suggestions
1)  Enclaves should never attempt to cross an AI planet in order to attack another AI planet; this never works out.  It should dump its ships, and hightail out of there.
2)  Enclaves need additional safety logic; the basic "when to begin retreat" logic isn't sufficient.
3)  Sometimes it's best just to dump the ships on a friendly planet and have them travel onto the enemy planet manually.

These enclaves have barely any influence on my game anymore because it's really late-game, but I really would like to see some changes done to them so I don't have to apply facepalm directly to the forehead.

I think enemy enclaves are fine (they should be less intelligent and more susceptible to human reaction); just implement better AI for the friendly ones.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Can we have more intelligent enclaves?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2010, 03:05:28 pm »
I don't think the friendly enclaves are intended to make much of a difference at that stage of the game.
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Offline Spikey00

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Re: Can we have more intelligent enclaves?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2010, 03:08:24 pm »
I understand, but this an observation throughout an entire game (and this is a matter of AI, not effectiveness), and which is why I would like to see some changes so that they don't just march out to their deaths.

I would just be happy to see that I have two friendly enclaves on my side at a given time--but 35 hours, sadly, I have yet to see that happen.
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Offline Vinraith

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Re: Can we have more intelligent enclaves?
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2010, 03:20:08 pm »
Human resistance fighters and marauders have the same suicidal tendencies, I've found. Then again, if they were dramatically smarter and having a vastly larger impact fighting the AI that would damage player agency, so I'm not sure how I really feel about the whole issue.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Can we have more intelligent enclaves?
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2010, 03:22:26 pm »
they should recognize that your attacking a planet, and send their forces to help.. like they do on defense. Never leave player planets however.
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Offline Echo35

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Re: Can we have more intelligent enclaves?
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2010, 04:26:29 pm »
they should recognize that your attacking a planet, and send their forces to help.. like they do on defense. Never leave player planets however.

I haven't had much experience with Enclaves (Friendly ones anyway) but the friendly ones I've gotten usually just sit on one of my planets and wait there until I get attacked. They've saved my butt a few times doing that. I've never actually seen them offensively go after the AI on an AI planet though, they usually just fly around mine.

Offline superking

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Re: Can we have more intelligent enclaves?
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2010, 04:39:16 pm »
just implementing a similar check that AI ships do when attacking planets 'do allied units outnumber enemy garrison 2:1?' would be enough, that way enclaves would only enter AI systems when your ships were in them too

Offline lanstro

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Re: Can we have more intelligent enclaves?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2010, 06:41:38 pm »
This is why I think the devourer golem and, to a lesser extent, the Dyson Sphere are strategically interesting minor factions while many of the others are not.  The Devourer Golem passing through an enemy system could very well bring forward your plans to take that system since it will soften it up for you, while a stream of friendly dyson gatlings (assuming that they're now as scary as they were back in the 3.x days) may similarly make you decide to send less or no ships to defend that planet (if the planet is yours).

In contrast, the friendly enclaves and resistance fighters are too weak / stupid to influence anything.  Them attacking a planet is not going to bring forward or delay my plans for taking that planet.  They just add a bit of flavour to the game, making it feel a bit more like a real world with several little powerless factions, but they're not strategically interesting.

In a similar vein, many of the hostile minor factions are also strategically uninteresting.  Hostile enclaves, resistance fighters/marauders, wardens etc are just pests that annoy you and need to be slapped down.  There's little or nothing the player can do to prevent them from coming (at least with astro trains you can kill train stations), and when they do come the player is obliged to send a little force to deal with it, but the threat is rarely at a level where the player risks loss if they're not dealt with.  Personally I play all CPA waves, so the existing turret defences on all bordering planets are usually enough to blast through any attacks from these factions without me lifting a finger.  They're like mosquitos in real life: annoying, can't really be prevented and don't add much of value to the game.

In conclusion, it'd be nice if a bit more was added to these fairly generic factions to make them more strategically interesting.  Things like adding ways to prevent them from coming/bribing them off/killing their bases/etc (when they're hostile) or miniquests/sending them aid/gifting them a planet/etc to make them stronger (when they're friendly), making them a bigger threat in general (so that the players actually are scared of them, like mining golems and devourer golems), or make them raise/lower ai progress if they're not dealt with properly or if you do deal with them properly.

Offline Echo35

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Re: Can we have more intelligent enclaves?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2010, 06:45:41 pm »
This is why I think the devourer golem and, to a lesser extent, the Dyson Sphere are strategically interesting minor factions while many of the others are not.  The Devourer Golem passing through an enemy system could very well bring forward your plans to take that system since it will soften it up for you, while a stream of friendly dyson gatlings (assuming that they're now as scary as they were back in the 3.x days) may similarly make you decide to send less or no ships to defend that planet (if the planet is yours).

This. I almost always play with the mining Golems and Dysons, sometimes I'll throw on the Human Resistance Fighters sometimes for kicks, but my games usually don't involve any of the Neinzul options beyond the ships themselves.

Offline Spikey00

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Re: Can we have more intelligent enclaves?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2010, 11:29:44 pm »
Which is why I love minor factions; they add a unique element to the game.  :P
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Offline Echo35

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Re: Can we have more intelligent enclaves?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2010, 11:44:08 pm »
Which is why I love minor factions; they add a unique element to the game.  :P

Oh, I love them, absolutely, just not the Neinzul Enclaves. In my current game, the Enclaves are doing far more damage to me than the AI itself is, which is getting pretty annoying. My AIP is near 150'ish, and they're sending waves of maybe 300-400 Mk. I ships, while the Nenzul Enclaves jump in and dump off 500-600 Mk. III Younglings. Very aggravating :)

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Can we have more intelligent enclaves?
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2010, 12:27:10 am »
early game enclaves are devastating, almost always costing you 1+ planets and rebuild time..

mid game, they are hardly even noticeable..
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Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Can we have more intelligent enclaves?
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2010, 04:28:24 am »
I love the enclaves, they spice things up a bit, tho the units it spawn might need some boosting maybe? Tho early game a hostile one can be bad news.

Also, suiciding enclaves is no good ;)
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Offline Spikey00

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Re: Can we have more intelligent enclaves?
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2010, 12:40:01 pm »
Perhaps with an improved AI, enclaves can start "improving" somewhat like how hybrids can when they survive for X duration?
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Offline PineappleSam

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Re: Can we have more intelligent enclaves?
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2010, 05:43:43 pm »
Bah, just lost a game at the 1 hour mark thanks to roaming Enclaves. Perhaps they could start with a few level 1 ships and then get more ships/levels over time? 400 mk.III ships on your homeworld is not a pleasant sight...

EDIT: Just lost a game to a raid engine, but this one felt like an acceptable loss. I was lazy with my scouting and decided to just pop a command station to clear the planet out and grab the ion cannon. Because I didn't look closely at the surrounding planets I failed to spot the raid engine which then got rather cross about the planet going quiet...

I was overwhelmed fairly quickly, losing just as my last-hope fleet managed to take out the raid engine and begin the return journey. This game I had control over and lost becuase I made mistakes. The other one felt like poor luck and little else.  :(
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 07:21:21 pm by PineappleSam »