Bulletproof Fighters

[MaxAstro]

Having just gotten a chance to try out the rebalanced Bulletproof Fighters, I can say that they are completely awesome.  However, I am concerned that they are perhaps a little TOO awesome.  Identical stats and cost to fighters plus a very significant special ability seems very strong.  I don't honestly see the point of spending knowledge on researching fighters if I have bulletproofs, which seems a bit excessive - I can't think of any other bonus ship that is an improvement in every way over a core triangle ship.

I will admit that possibly overpowered Bulletproofs is an improvement over their ~ahem~ less than useful previous incarnations. 

In other news, I think the matchup data for Bulletproofs is outdated.  For example, Marauder Frigates claim to be 100% effective vs Bulletproofs, but 67% ineffective vs Fighters; seems like it should be the same either way.

[Ozymandiaz]

  I don't honestly see the point of spending knowledge on researching fighters if I have bulletproofs

I can; simply to have more ships .

[Fiskbit]

Having just gotten a chance to try out the rebalanced Bulletproof Fighters, I can say that they are completely awesome.  However, I am concerned that they are perhaps a little TOO awesome.  Identical stats and cost to fighters plus a very significant special ability seems very strong.  I don't honestly see the point of spending knowledge on researching fighters if I have bulletproofs, which seems a bit excessive - I can't think of any other bonus ship that is an improvement in every way over a core triangle ship.

I really think this is worth taking into consideration. I've not tested them, but from what I've read in the release notes, these ships are apparently entirely better than fighters, so if you have them, there's no contest regarding which to utilize first. They have an important improvement over fighters, so they should probably be worse in some other way.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I'm pretty sure they have less firepower...

[HitmanN]

I haven't tested the new Bulletproofs yet either, but it does sound odd that they're basically Standard Fighters + shell immunity. Maybe something like 70-80% of Fighter's stats + shell immunity instead, so that there's at least some reasons to prefer one over the other. Slightly less attack power could be one way to go as well, so you can choose whether to focus on fighters that have attack or ones with defense.

[jordot42]

Well, they don't show up every game plus the AI can use them too.  Those should be balancing features I think.
     

[jordot42]

A couple of minor nerfs could be to double the metal cost (specialized armor) and half the speed (the specialized armor is heavy).  Leave all other stats as-is.

[Excession]

I don't really see an issue if they are just plain better than standard fighters. They need to be - they cost you your pick.

I don't bother building fighters (except for numbers when maxxing out fleets) whenever I pick a fighter type class - say raiders, raptors or planes...

You shouldn't compare them to normal fighters; you should compare them to the other possible picks.

[jordot42]

I don't really see an issue if they are just plain better than standard fighters. They need to be - they cost your your pick.

You shouldn't compare them to normal fighters; you should compare them to the other possible picks.

Good points.

[keith.lamothe]

Yes, I figured they would need some balancing nerfs, metal cost and speed coming to mind first.  Actually they used to cost only metal, I think, before I literally told it to use the same logic for the fighter and bulletproof stats and then do some extra things for bulletproofs.

But in general I think the "costs one of your special ship slots" cost is worth a lot in the balance scale, and that the base fighters are still just as useful as they were before and you often simply need the more-ships factor.  If you're fighting non-shell ships with no ion-cannons around they certainly aren't any worse.

[I-KP]

Bulletproofs now make for pretty decent Fighter analogues now.  I was generally of the opinion that the Specials were slightly better than their closest core equiv. on the trade-off that those Special aren't always available.

[MaxAstro]

I don't really see an issue if they are just plain better than standard fighters. They need to be - they cost you your pick.

I don't bother building fighters (except for numbers when maxxing out fleets) whenever I pick a fighter type class - say raiders, raptors or planes...

You shouldn't compare them to normal fighters; you should compare them to the other possible picks.

Raiders, Raptors, and Planes may all be better than fighters in many situations, but they aren't ~strictly~ better than fighters.  That is, you can theorize situations where fighters would be more useful (planes have extremely low health, so if you are against a fortified position with tachyons and need to create a lasting battle, fighters might be a better choice).

Currently, however, bulletproofs are the only special to 100% obsolete a core triangle ship.  There is no situation where you would rather deploy fighters than bulletproofs, which I would argue is a bad thing (There are of course many situations where you would want to deploy fighters AND bulletproofs, but that is not my point).  I would also argue that having a bonus ship that is just core triangle ship + special ability sets a bad precedent as far as making bonus ships unique and interesting goes.

A higher material cost than fighters would be enough to allay my balance concerns; from the "unique and interesting" side of things I think their stats could perhaps be tweaked a bit, just so that it's not obvious to anybody who compares the two in the shipyard that they are carbon copies of each other.

[keith.lamothe]

Rest assured, they will be made different in some way, this was just intended to bring them back up to fighter-ish usefulness.  They had been much, much worse due to an oversight while revising fighter stats some time ago.

[Ozymandiaz]

I rather like thier speed at any rate. Seems fitting and makes a decent combi fleet of bulletproofs and regular fighers.

But how about giving them bomber speeds?

Or maybe let them only have 90% of fighter damage?

Both?

Would still be useful. Their immunity to ion cannons can be a real advantage sometimes, I would let them keep that.

But as said, they do take a slot I could use for other ships as well. Make them too poor and they will not really be picked over other ships.

[Kjara]

Personally I'm in favor of perhaps higher metal costs, but don't touch the speed(reduce firepower slightly if needed).  Really you want these to be able to keep up with your fighters as they are going to be hitting the same targets.  As people have stated much of their cost is the fact that you have them instead of another awesome special unit like (cough munition boosters in the current patch) .