Brainstomring: Status of Command Stations

[Diazo]

Alright.

In about 4 different threads, people has come out saying that the new mini-fort makes military command stations a lot less desirable then they were.

So, all command station discussion to this thread, let's see if we can hammer out some suggestions that make sense that are worth forwarding to Keith.

I'll start off. I envision command stations as the following (not necessarily how I see them currently implemented.)

Military: A direct combat station that is designed for systems where combat is expected. However, not just for a whipping boy but for your border systems to make them more secure.
Economic: Boosts your economy to increase effective m+c income. (Not necessarily a straight boost as currently, maybe change it to a percent increase?)
Logistic: This one is an oddball, I'm not sure what it is supposed to be. The game does not really move 'supplies' for ships in any form and the current speed boost mechanic is not really 'logistical' in how I define the word.


Notes on as implemented:

Military: About right I think. Maybe could use an HP boost, a Mk III military command station has less HP then most Mk I starships.
Economic: As compared to the other two, this one is the overpowered one I feel. I think the biggest reason it is its bonus is on all the time as it is simply a high resource income. The other two command stations only apply their bonus part of the time and so suffer when directly compared. I'm not sure what the fix is though, change then to a % boost of harvesters in system so they are more variable? Maybe decrease their resource income with the new energy model?
Logistics: With all command stations granting the speed increase to all friendly ships, the halving of enemy ship speed really feels like an afterthought and hardly worth it. Even the higher mark stations that grant friendly ships the extra speed feel weak. With all types of stations across all marks all granting a speed doubling to all friendly ships, their special really isn't special.



Thoughts on changes.

I'm kind of throwing suggestions out here to see what you guys think.

First, drop the cap to 3 so the specials can get changed and to keep the Mk II versions relevant. At a cap of 6 I find the Mk II versions simply increase the Knowledge cost of the Mk IIIs as once the Mk IIIs are unlocked you never need to use the Mk IIs again. This would also allow for a Knowledge decrease to make unlocking them easier in general.

Second. Military Stations are probably the closest to 'right' in my opinion. Their biggest weakness is that there are several units, notably fortresses, that are attack boost immune and so do not get the Military Stations biggest reason for existing.

Third, Economic Stations. These did get a pretty big rebalance not that long ago so I'm hesitant to say they need to be nerfed. However, after the energy system changes I'm not sure they are not overpowered at this point. They are right in a thematic sense however in how they boost resource income so maybe reduce their numbers a little on how big a boost they are to your economy.

Also on economic stations, what about changing them to a percentage increase of harvesters in system? That would make their desirability variable based on the number of resource points in the system. However, I think one of the design goals way back when was to decouple the economic station from the resource points so that if the map layout hated you and their were no resource nodes nearby, unlocking economic stations was your alternative to increase your resource income.

Lastly, logistics stations. On these I have no real idea. I don't think I've ever seriously played with them as their theme really doesn't interest me. Maybe change their theme somehow?


So, what do you guys think?

D.

[keith.lamothe]

I already have some changes for the mil station in mind, but I'll listen if someone has ideas on that one.

[chemical_art]

Couple of quick bouncing of ideas:

Your ideal for military comm stations are correct. However, with the new mini-forts, every system gets a pretty powerful overall defense mechanism. Military comm stations don't really help this defense. Almost anything that can get by 4 sniper turrets and 2 mini forts and a shield over an economic comm station won't be stopped by a military station (exceptions exist, but I'd estimate being less then 5%).

For logistic stations, with both Zenith movement speed enhancers for research and the default 2x speed for allied units, you rarely need need the movement speed boost. I'd estimate its useful 5% of the time.

In contrast, the improved econ for the economy stations is useful 95% of the time. Some say they experience the resource cap, but I vehemently state with a more aggressive play style (or liberal usage of mercenaries) that this won't occur).

I'll be super generous and say two of the command stations are useful 10% of the time and one is useful 90% of the time. With that, its hard to balance.

I will add that making economy stations tied to harvesters will not help at all, and actually make that upgrade kind of irrelevant since you won't have any reason to not just upgrade the harvesters directly. The whole point of the economy comm station vs. harvester upgrade trade off is the econ station benefit is constant while the harvester benefit is variable. Making the econ station tied to the harvester makes the very limited variety of economic upgrades even more shallow.

[chemical_art]

I already have some changes for the mil station in mind, but I'll listen if someone has ideas on that one.

I will throw out that whatever is in mind has to do this:

You have to make it so that the military command station somehow is dramatically more effective when covered by a shield and protected by 2 mini forts then when compared to an econ station covered by a shield when covered by 2 mini forts. This in my mind is the most bare bone defense system in the current game. Very rarely in any game today do I have a command station not covered by a shield, and since mini forts are capless there is little reason to not have them protected by at least one mini fort as well, but any 2nd line of defense needs 2.

Before the mini forts, if you had just a shield and a econ station, you'd need a variety of turrets. Now, you can get away with 4 snipers (which I only include to counter raid starships) and 2 mini forts and you can counter any roaming free threat aside from boarder worlds. It won't stop a wave, but a shield and military station alone wouldn't counter a wave either.

Boarder worlds are a different story, but with military and logistic stations being useful 10% of the time, even if the military station smashes waves (which it doesn't right now, it provides more of a light push, not a smash) then its still gimped from the constant goodness of econ stations. It doesn't help that the free military comm stations provide the maximal amount of benefit to the biggest things to begin with, so even if you used them on your border worlds you wouldn't need them behind the lines, so you get econ stations anyway.

[Lancefighter]

I mentioned this elsewhere, but I feel the major reason behind econ's strength is that it can carry all of the same turrets as any other system. An econ station with full cap of turrets is only *slightly* worse than a logistics station with a full cap of turrets. Sure, a mk3 command station with a full cap of turrets is twice as strong, but it takes all the way to mk3 before that is relevant.

I believe I proposed elsewhere that all basic turrets become per-planet caps, with the military station simply getting more than the econ or logistics stations. I'm talking tons more. Basically, if you want to defend something, your only option is the military station, because anything else would only have 1/5 as many turrets available.
If we really wanted to stick with the miniforts, give military stations multiple miniforts or something. That would probably work.

Alternatively, really silly idea, allow military stations to nullify the forcefield damage reduction debuff. I'm not actually sure how that will work out, but it will give them a really nice niche use. Or maybe give them their own mini-forcefield items. Or something random. I dunno.

I'm interested to hear what keith has in mind for them though.

[Faulty Logic]

My current impression:

The stats:
All: provide control, supply their and adjacent systems, double allied move speed
EI: 32m, 32c, 2000e
EII: 80m, 80c, 4000e
EIII: 160m, 160c, 6000e
MI: 16m, 16c, -2000e, 2 trans-shots per second, 19% attack boost, minor tachyons
MII: 32m, 32c, -4000e, 4 trans-shots per second, 50% attack boost, minor tachyons
MIII: 64m, 64c, -6000e, 8 trans-shots per second, 100% attack boost, planetwide tachyons
LI: 24m, 24c, -1000e, halves enemy speed, speed boost (of what?), advanced warp detection
LII: 48m, 48c, -2000e, halves enemy speed, speed boost (of what?), advanced warp detection
LIII: 96m, 96c, -3000e, halves enemy speed, speed boost (of what?), advanced warp detection, no teleport

Aside from high-mark logistics command stations, the current system works well.

Economic: the baseline for comparison, as its benefits are obvious (you always can use more material)
mkI: unnoticeable relative benefit compared to log Is, I never use these.
mkII: a nice boost
mkIII: for when I need all the money

Military: hold the chokepoint(s)
mkI: I never build this, because its 20% firepower increase is not worth the relative speed factor of two (and an absolute rsf of 4) I could be getting from log Is.
mkII: starting to get serious about defending a single world.
mkIII: invaluable for high-AIP games, notably fallen spire. Also convienient agianst cloaking.

Logistic: speed boosts, between econ and military in material terms
mkI: easily the best of the mkI stations; it delays enemy fleets, and lets you fight them on your terms. Combined with riots/long-range turrets, far more effective defence than mil Is, and the material gain is almost as good as the econ Is.
mkII: you are buying the improved m+c income, while preserving the speed benefit.
mkIII: same, but with a nice bonus against teleportation.

Warp Jammer: it doesn't need any changes, as it has the biggest stategic impact.


Most games, I end up using logistics mkI exclusively. If I need a stronger economy, I unlock harvesters.

In high-AIP games, I use econs internally, with milIIIs at the front.  I never unlock econ or logistic stations.

I think that the high-mark stations (especially the logistics) could use a buff, preferably a k-cost decrease.

[Diazo]

I already have some changes for the mil station in mind, but I'll listen if someone has ideas on that one.

I'm hoping they are good ones because at the moment my best idea is a total overhaul of the system that would require significant code work.

In short, you get a single command station unit that is built in all systems, including your home system. (Anything extra for the home system would have to get moved to the Home FF Generator).

Then, upgrades simply upgrade the command station. You unlock Millitary Mk I? All you command stations in the game (both built and future) get the Military Mk I abilities. Short on resources? Unlock Econ Mk I and all command stations (both built and future) now have both the military Mk I and Econ Mk I abilities.

In short, you can upgrade your command stations as much as you want as long as you are willing to spend the knowledge on them.

I'm not going to suggest actually implementing this as with the limited knowledge you have it would quickly bankrupt you and the game engine does not support a unit with variable abilities at this point and that would be a huge code change to implement.

But that's my 'best' idea at the moment for reworking command stations so hopefully it can generate more suggestions and ideas.

D.

[Winge]

I agree with what Faulty Logic said, although I would add the following points:

There are niche times when I have found a Military Command Station to be preferable to a Logistics.  They are, as follows:
1.  On a Gravity Drill Planet (pretty self-explanatory).
2.  When dealing with Gravity Immune units.  Most commonly happens with Exos, as once the lead ship dies, the Exo is probably within striking range of your defenses anyways.
3.  If separated from defenses from whatever reason, they are the only CC I know of that can effectively stall a Raid Starship long enough for mobile forces to arrive.

I've unlocked Logistics IIIs once, when dealing with an extremely annoying AI who had Teleport Battle Stations.  I have yet to unlock Military III's.  I considered it when I faced a Stealth Master, but I was playing FS, so I really didn't have to worry much about a few units hiding out.  The attack boost would probably have been valuable to me, though.  I haven't unlocked Econ IIIs for a while.  Typically, if I need more resources, I unlock harvesters.  I find that I use Logistics stations most of the time, unless I find a Gravity drill or if I my station is way out in the middle of nowhere.  Warp Jammers are a thing of beauty; I can put myself in striking range of the AI homeworld without irritating the core worlds.  I use these almost every game since the patch that allowed them to prevent planets from going on alert.

In short, you get a single command station unit that is built in all systems, including your home system. (Anything extra for the home system would have to get moved to the Home FF Generator).

Then, upgrades simply upgrade the command station. You unlock Millitary Mk I? All you command stations in the game (both built and future) get the Military Mk I abilities. Short on resources? Unlock Econ Mk I and all command stations (both built and future) now have both the military Mk I and Econ Mk I abilities.

What about using modules to simulate that type of behavior?  I've heard that idea from the forums before, but I'm not sure who mentioned it.

[rabican]

Economy fills different role compared to logistic/military. In non battle heavy planet its no brainer and that is fine. On other planets its conest between logistics and military. Logistics usually wins, although if i feel need to either build some serious chokepoints or defend waytoomany planets mk II-III military stations win out.

Economy station mk II+ i never upgrade. If it doesnt help me kill stuff of keep my stuff alive i'm not interested. My opinion doesn't really count here !

Logistics i never upgrade , MK II adds almost nothing and MK III is a niche that i haven't encountered yet.

Military, sometimes, in high AIP games or when facing doube shadow/stealth masters on crosshatch map.


Economy station is fine.

Military could use bit more health and maybe radar dampening.  So you might not feel the need to always shield with FF . Just 99% of time.

Logistic , well i have no idea. MK I is awesome and rest are just same with gravy. MK II - III need some kind of small ovehaul to be sure , but i have no idea what. Something weird, and radical. I feel like these are meant to be like roads connecting your hotspots but euh dunno. What they don't need to do is affect combat more. They already do that alot.

[eRe4s3r]

I would actually prefer upgradable modular command stations this mini fortress in essence could be an upgrade for the MIL section of upgrades. I also would prefer, no offense, new art for the command station and it's modules and variations..... ^^

Logistics should increase the range of our supply by 1 world hop, allow for ships to be produced at it. (ie, shipyards build-teleport to here, optionally)

Upgrades path are mutually exclusive (or maybe just some parts of them are)

Problem solved. (Well, that, and MIL and Logistic functions need a serious do-over, I never could figure out what log stations are for. Though MIL stations are still good to have in the front lines.. just throwing this in ,p

[Lancefighter]

I feel like the player warpgates devalue the logistics stations a lot..
also, zenith spacetime manipulators, a base game unlock, are amazing. They provide so much speed to your fleet, while costing basically nothing(except a minor knowledge cost, which was reduced recently). I dont really see why I would actually build a logistics station, or for that matter unlock higher marks, when the spacetime manip could be used to move your fleet.

[eRe4s3r]

Maybe all these buildings should be upgrades for the command stations then.. I am sure we can find some more things that are making MIL or LOG stations obsolete (in fortress worlds, I would never use a MIL station ;p) Waste of resources. Literally.

If we could somehow upgrade mil stations with specific weapons, like Riot Ships, just way stronger.... and LOG stations with warpgate, or even jumpgate functionality (Jump from LOG to LOG station).....

[chemical_art]

Warp gate to warp gate functionality for MK III logistic stations could cause me to buy them...

[Kahuna]

Warp Gate Command Station.
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=9082
This could also be MarkIII Logistics Command Station.

[Faulty Logic]

I don't like the modular command idea. Command stations should be simple.

I like the warp gate command idea (specifically the logIII permutation of it).
Another way to http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=9155buff high-mark logistics stations