Bonus Ship Types

[RCIX]

Foreword: I may have missed a recent discussion, feel free to link me back to it if so. Also any apologies if I trod on anyone's pet bonus ship type.

We all know AI War is known for its variety of types. Some might even say that there are too many. I don't think there are, they're just waaaaaay too scattered in terms of useful design. Like, who the hell uses Tachyon Microfighters? Or Space Tanks? or Eye Bots? Or Autocannon Minipods? Sniper ships are a type between a rock and a hard place (they serve no real purpose given what snipers are supposed to do now, and changing them makes them "not-sniper-ships")

Point is, there are way too many gimmick ship types. This is as distinct from niche, wherein they serve a distinct gameplay purpose (See melee units, electric shuttles). For instance, Zenith Chameleons are a very gimmicky choice of ship, and you only really ever want them because they're "another cap of bombers" (This could be changed by allowing chameleons to slowly move in junk form and giving them immense alpha strike, but I digress).

Therefore, I propose the following:
 * 6 appropriate ship types (preferably base) are butchered into straightforward swarm/lowcap versions of fleetships. Basically, the ship types aren't being used much now, so why not just give them a straightforward role?
 * One to 3 other roles become more clearly defined and polished, and then 3x those roles in ship types get re purposed.
 * Anything else that's not strong is heavily buffed.

(My understanding is that Armor removal is also on the table, and should that go through most combat units would need some degree of re-balancing, and therefore this would be a good time to whack at some ship roles)

[Hearteater]

I don't know that we can't just tweak most of the existing ships into a good place.  Really all each ship type needs is:

1) It needs to have a good role as the players initial bonus ship.  This can be strong early game use, or a really good end game strength.  Or something in between.  But each time I pick a bonus ship, it should feel distinct enough that the experience feels different.  It doesn't have to be earth shatteringly different, just enough so that I hit several points in an average game that my bonus pick really shines.

2) It needs to be interesting when the AI has it.  I should care which ships the AI has, and which are coming in that wave.  Ships the AI is terrible with need tweaks.  Ships the AI is crazy good with are equally bad.

[RCIX]

I think that 2 is easy to satisfy; I have trouble naming more than 5 or so ship types you wouldn't really care if the AI sent you. 1 is a lot more difficult; Eye bots aren't all that useful given how prevalent Tachyon Guardians are (is there a setting for this?), Sniper Ships are just kind of mech, Tachyon Microfighters aren't really necessary, [...] It's whether satisfying 2 meets the criteria for 1 as well.

[Diazo]

Now, this I find interesting and I think I'm going to be at odds with most people on it.

I like the range of ships we have now, even if a lot of them are 'gimmicky'.

Especially after the buff/nerf polls, I don't feel their is any ship that I look at and go "that sucks, totally".

I think this is best illustrated by the fact that when I start a new game, I don't look at the map and just hit "start" so I get a random ship, rather then picking and choosing a 'favorite'.

It shakes things up and helps keep each game different.

Admittedly some ships are worse then others, but I don't feel any ship is useless and I am willing to use all ships and adapting my strategy for that game to the ship I got is a large part of why I keep coming back. The different ships give me different options and tricks I can pull off.

Another thing that shows our difference of opinion on this? I love the eye-bot. Cloaking and FF immunity? Two of my favorite abilities in the game.

Now, are their ships that feel "samey"? Yes. However, I don't think any ships are similar enough that you could swap the stats and keep the names and nothing would change for the players. Each ship is unique, even if only slightly.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, some ships are samey (space tank basically = bomber) and some ships are gimmicky (chameleon), but looking at the overall field I don't see this as a big problem.

[TechSY730]

[...]Eye bots aren't all that useful given how prevalent Tachyon Guardians are (is there a setting for this?)

Not currently, but I do have a mantis post about this sort of effect.

[Hearteater]

Tachyon Guardians are easily raidable to clear a path for Eyes.  The biggest issue with Eyes are the aren't Speed Boostable.  I think that might need to change.  Given the Counter Missile Turret completely shuts them down, and players use speed boosting more than the AI, I don't think this would break them.  Their DPS is actually pretty decent last time I checked.  I remember looking in to seeing if maybe that should be buffed, maybe by increasing their reload be leaving their DPS the same so they had a higher alpha strike from cloak, but that really put them in kind of scary territory.  I'd be ok with that in the AIs hands, but I'm not sure everyone would be.

[Wingflier]

While I won't deny that all bonus ships are USEABLE, I really don't think that's any measure of balance or good game design.

Choosing between a Raider and a Space Plane is like choosing between a slingshot and a bazooka, and I could give you tons of more example just like this.  That isn't to say that the Raiders are useless, or don't buff the DPS or my fleet, or anything of that nature (I mean when it comes to fleetballing, why does it really matter WHAT you have, as long as it moves and shoots?).

However, I agree with RCIX, we should aim for a more ideal balance between the 80+ bonus ships we have. Some people may be like, "Well dude, if you think a bonus ship sucks, just don't freaking use it."

Good point. That's great. Except the AI may end up using it. In fact, how difficult the game is depends heavily on what bonus ships the AI unlocks. If the AI unlocks Eye Bots, Railclusters, Spire Stealth Battleships, and Rams (i.e., my current game)...my god, you are in for a world of hurt. Whereas if it unlocks Raiders, Minipods, Microfighters, and Chameleons, well...massacre probably isn't a strong enough term.  The bonus ships the AI gets can literally raise or lower the difficulty by an entire level. If I'm playing difficulty 8 and they get the right unlocks, I may as well be playing difficulty 9.

If I'm playing difficulty 8 and they get the wrong unlocks, I may as well be playing 7. And everything inbetween.

Personally I think every ship the AI has access to should be a threat. Of course the humans can just choose the best ones, and have no reason NOT to. But the quality of the game is severely dampened by the fact that the AI is often placed with such underpowered units compared to what you are using. Which is why I wish we could get a bonus ship omission file added, or at the very least admit that this is a problem.

[RCIX]

Tachyon Guardians are easily raidable to clear a path for Eyes.

See attachment

Yea, some ships are samey (space tank basically = bomber) and some ships are gimmicky (chameleon), but looking at the overall field I don't see this as a big problem.

I'm thinking Space Planes vs Eye bots for an example. One is apparently a scout and the other has to be shot from short range? And one has bonuses against polycrystal as well, though doesn't this mostly just show up on bombers? Like, if there's supposed to be a role there, then maybe formalize it and roll it into available ship types in every game (dangerous waters, I know!), and strip one or the other of gimmicks (making it just "fast cloaked unit what has bonuses against structures and shoots through forcefields"). But the thing is, and it wouldn't be all that hard, I could list a dozen bonus ship types that the only reason you'd ever want them is if they were "another cap of X strong unit" or overpowered.

I'm fine with quirky roles in general, I think the melee units are a great example of this (and only may need numbers tweaks if that). But a lot of units, particularly most of the base game ones, are just kind of... eww.

The bonus ships the AI gets can literally raise or lower the difficulty by an entire level.

You realize this means that the AI *facehuggers*

Goes up to 11

YEAHHHHHHH

[Hearteater]

Eye Bots also gather intel, so they increase your ability to picket systems greatly.  They can save you from unlocking Scout II+ in a game.  Tweak them to a 4 second reload with the same DPS, or give a x1.5 multiplier against Medium and they can raid Tachyon Guardians on their own.

[RCIX]

That's sort of a specific solution in a general problem thread. Here's what I'm thinking, if I was to get somewhat comprehensive:

 * Take Raiders and make them a core type, buff them appropriately (also possibly transition them into a low cap unit type for perf reasons)
 * Take Eye Bots and whatever the hell else is raider-like, and consolidate them around the idea of "more caps of raiders, with maybe minor extra features"
 * Take Autocannon Minipods and Space Tanks and turn them into Light/Heavy Bombers (with minor extra features)
 * Take MLRS and Anti Armor and turn them into Heavy/Light frigates (with minor extra features)
 * Take Tachyon Microfighters and Armor ships and turn them into Light/Heavy fighters (with minor extra features)
 * Obtain a list of bonus types the community thinks is "design challenged" and fix those up (only here because I haven't the time or knowledge to dig through all of the rest to figure out what is dumb)

[keith.lamothe]

What would keep someone else from coming along in a few months, seeing those light/heavy variants with "minor extra features", thinking "this is a samey ship with a few gimmicks, we need an overhaul"?

[RCIX]

The point in this case would be that it's samey. All those other types were originally intended to be something else but failed at it. I'm fine with samey if A: it works, and B: preferably, if it's loud and proud about it. See: Chameleons and Electric Bombers riding on the strength of "we are another cap of bombers to smash fortified targets with".

[keith.lamothe]

The point in this case would be that it's samey. All those other types were originally intended to be something else but failed at it. I'm fine with samey if A: it works, and B: preferably, if it's loud and proud about it. See: Chameleons and Electric Bombers riding on the strength of "we are another cap of bombers to smash fortified targets with".

Why is the Chameleon's gimmick ok and the Eye Bot's considerably-more-important-than-gimmicks (ignore forcefields, and cloaking) not?

[RCIX]

Because of what they end up doing. Chameleons end up = bomber, eye bots end up doing... what exactly? Also, I picked on them because they looked raider like =p