Bonus ship group bonuses and group penalties

[keith.lamothe]

To clarify, those aren't numbers from the game, but it should be displaying the actual percentages on the units as you build them, so if anyone's seeing different numbers please post here.  Not necessarily a bug but a different computation.

Anyway, I think these should either be high-energy-cost with a moderate cluster penalty or moderate-energy-cost with a high cluster penalty (.55 is definitely high) or if high on both then more powerful... not sure, though, don't want to make them too OP.  I'm thinking dropping the energy cost would be ok; personally I think if you're spending one of your bonus slots on the ship type it's fair to have a relatively no-brainer to put one on every possible-to-attack planet (at least of mkI; higher marks should be a bit more significant in that regard).

One thing, with the whole sentinel/defense idea, would be to bolt on a tachyon emitter.

[wyvern83]

One thing, with the whole sentinel/defense idea, would be to bolt on a tachyon emitter.

That would really awesome and helpful. I think the addition would add greatly to its defensive character.

In game cluster penalty looks like this atm: First sentinel frigate is full power, second a red 55, third a red 2.

Your balance scheme of a high and a moderate hit for energy or cluster penalty for this unit sounds fair to me. I'd gladly use them either way, though I think moderate energy cost would be preferable as I like the idea behind this unit as its fairly unique. Z Elec Bombers are similar I think though I don't remember for sure and I haven't had a great chance to try them yet either.

[ShadowOTE]

I hate those things. The AI delights in sending dozens (or hundreds) of them into our choke points, and they soak up RIDICULOUS amounts of damage. The best way to deal with them seems to be superfortresses, as even huge masses of turrets take time to wipe them out (especially on spokes, where they get plenty of possible entry points you have to cover).

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, it's really not our intention that the AI use sentinels as a swarm.  I mean, it's very effective, and I'm glad that it's "figured out" to use them that way, but it's supposed to have a per-planet cap on how many it places of anything with a cluster penalty, and that doesn't seem to be working right now.  Eventually it'll get fixed, though.

[Lancefighter]

I hate those things. The AI delights in sending dozens (or hundreds) of them into our choke points, and they soak up RIDICULOUS amounts of damage. The best way to deal with them seems to be superfortresses, as even huge masses of turrets take time to wipe them out (especially on spokes, where they get plenty of possible entry points you have to cover).

viral shredders go OM NOM NOM


True story.

[ShadowOTE]

Build 100+, then leave them to replicate. Of course, that doesnt mean they're effective, but they do soak up tons of fire (at least for the tier 1s... then again, they ARE fighting tier 3s most of the time). 163 constructed, 1400+ built, 1000 died, 83 kills.... w00t!

[RCIX]

1000 died, 83 kills....

\
Lol!

[LintMan]

I don't care for Sentinel Frigates, either.   I took it once as a starter ship, regretted it, and I'm disappointed if it shows up from one of the adv. labs. 

Like others have said, it's really the 10K energy cost that's a killer - some starships are cheaper!  That, especially combined with the massive cluster penalty.   It has good damage output and it's tough, but when you can effectively only have one at any particular place, it feels like it has little impact, compared to a lot of the other bonus units. 

To me, any ships with cluster penalties are a micromanagement headache: If I have the energy I'd like to keep a set with the fleet, and a set per planet, but then when you bring your fleet to one of your planets, you immediately get bitten by the cluster penalty.

Suggestion 1 - keep the high energy cost and cluster penalty, but make them awesome one-per-planet defenders:
- Energy cost and cluster penalties remain the same, reduce ship speed to 10 or even less, add a high-range cloak detector, add a built-in forcefield generator the size of the Mk 3 Riot-starship's that units or turrets could fire out from without penalty.  Damage to the forcefield would go directly against the sentinel's hp, like a force field generator.  (I think this would effectively make them fairly fragile since they'd be taking a lot more hits as the protected the covered units/turrets, so maybe their health would need to be bumped up too.)  This is my favorite suggestion.

Suggestion 2 - make them energy-cheaper and more useable in quantity:
- Reduce the energy cost to 500, maybe increase the material cost a bit, double or triple the unit cap, and reduce the cluster penalty to something like .7 or .8, reduce the per-shot damage back to the old values

Suggestion 3 - reduce energy cost, make them a fortress-like unlockable instead of a bonus shipm build from command Def menu.
- Reduce the energy cost to 1000, increase material cost a bit, remove cluster penalty, no wormhole travel.  This would let you build 'em all in one system, but you'd be stuck with them all there.

[ShadowOTE]

The way I see it, the only way to make them worthwhile at present it option #1 from above. Make them into something along the lines of portable mini-ion cannons. At that point, then they become worthwhile. At present, i just scrap them, or put them inside fortresses when I reclaim them (I do the same thing with Z-bombers, but that's just cause they've got insane hp, so they make great tanks.

[wyvern83]

I wouldn't be opposed to suggestion 1 either as it doesn't detract any from the Sentinel Frigate's unique character. I'd be interested in see this.

[keith.lamothe]

The difficulty with option 1 is that you'd basically have a starship disguised as a fleet ship... I wouldn't mind making it more of a middle-ground unit, but that would take some more thought and an ok from Chris from a designer standpoint.

[LintMan]

Well, Sentinel frigates already have the energy cost of a starship - a Zenith starship to be exact; most other starships are far cheaper.    By another comparison, a Fortress also costs 10K energy.  Yeah, the material costs of a Sentinel are a lot less than those, but it is also far less powerful/useful, and to me, energy is vastly by far the most important/limiting resource, especially when there are lots of other useful things out there like Golems and Zenith Reserves that need tons and tons of energy...

As I see it, a Mk 1 FF Gen uses 3K energy and gives a large 9M health shield, the Sentinel would provide a fraction of that protection over a smaller area.   The assorted Tachyon sensor ships (including the Decloaker) only use 100 energy each.  In those terms, it doesn't sound overpowered to me, just a bargain in material costs.  Remember it would also be slower and even less useful on offense.  But I'm certainly not married to this idea... I'm just trying to think of a way to make a pretty much singleton defense-oriented ship attractive enough to be tempting compared to some of the more useful/versatile choices out there.

Forgetting option 1 for a moment, though, even if the Sentinel energy cost was reduced to 500 or 1000 and everything else kep exactly the same, I'm not sure I'd be sold on them.  I guess they make a nice DPS boost to a planet's defense, but the inability to concentrate their power makes them far less versatile than a lot of the other bonus ships, which you could use on both defense or offense and which have their own special features.  This is the reason I suggested OPtion 3 of making the Sentinel an reasearch-unlockable instead of a discovered/starter bonus unit.  Sentinels would be more attractive if I could just pay some research to get them and not have the opportunity cost of a getting more versatile bonus ship.

Edit: I apparently started typing this just before the 3.098 update was posted, so I see now the new update makes a few changes to Sentinels.   Most definitely a huge improvement, for sure, but I'm still not sure I'd be tempted to pick them to start a game.

[Kjara]

Well, not every ship needs to be the ideal first pick, I hope this moves to the level where its not like, feh I got the worthless sents from an ARS .

[ShadowOTE]

I like the changes made to sentinal frigates, but I suspect they're still in need of a few more changes. The stuff they do now is nice, but unless you've got a huge surface area and need the extra coverage, you're not going to use them. And even then, you'd probably be better off maxing a turret line or two than going to tier 3/4 with sentinal frigates. Maybe a ridiculously low reload time to offset their low numbers?

[RCIX]

Well, not every ship needs to be the ideal first pick, I hope this moves to the level where its not like, feh I got the worthless sents from an ARS .

I'd like all bonus ships to be good first picks in some way or another; it means that i get to actually use them and not avoid them because they are worthless.